Deja Vu - Mechanics

[BigUmp56]

This is the last thing I am going to add to this thread. If I know I got the call right. I'm not asking for help, either. But, somehow all this other stuff gets added into the post by certain people. I haven't gone to the home plate umpire in a long time. If Tee doesn't want to or feel he needs to get help that is fine and dandy. That is what starts all the fireworks. His belittle of me and other posters. He is the one that gets off base, if you know what I mean. Right now, him and his cronies are ripping someone over the spelling of a word. Even pulling out their dictionairies. I may come off as harse, but I refuse to be patronized. To know me is to love me. [/B][/QUOTE]


PWL,

Lord knows Tee and I don't always agree, but this is one of the times he is on the money.

You're the one who is belittling him for not going along with your "feel good" approach to umpiring. Tee responds to your nonsense and tries to give you some sound advice, and you dismiss it without even considering he might be right.

Just because some of us agree with Tim that you should be able to move to the developing play and set yourself to make the right call, doesn't mean were his "cronies." It means that you may want to get over yourself for a minute and consider we simply are in agreement on this issue.

If you feel you were straight lined and possibly missed the swipe tag or pulled foot, the first thing you should do is sell the call with confidence! After you've made the call, wait for any continuing action to relax and then turn your back to the close call and hustle back to your position.

If the manager comes out and is granted time to discuss the call with you, tell him what you saw. When you have the discussion you need to be confident in your explaination. More often than not you will convince him that going to your partner for help is going to be a conference made in futility. If he insists that you ask for help, the proper protocol is to grant his request. That doesn't mean your not going to ultimately make the call yourself. It means your simply going to have a discussion with your partner.

Most of the time when a manager asks for my partner and I to have a conference, we discuss one of the MILFS in the stands. The reason we do this, is we are all about making our own calls!

My opinion, is whiney coaches who argue a judgement call, can lay back and try to piss up a rope. It's my call, and as long as I've made it to the best of my ability, no amount of "huddling up" is going to change my mind.

In 15 years of umpiring, I've only overturned myself twice because of a partners input. Both times were early in my career and had to do with poor positioning. After learning how to be in the right position to avoid being blocked out, I've never had another umpire tell me anything I already didn't know myself.

You stated that you've never ejected a coach. I find that hard to believe, but I'll take you at your word. Now you advocate going for help if you think you missed a call. Going for help because a manager thinks you should is one thing. Going for help because you think you should due to poor positioning is another matter entirely.

The point the guys are trying to make to you is that we've learned through experience that this playing nicey nice with the coaches will make you a whipping boy for them. Make your own calls, eject without predjudice, and stop being such a pu$$y!


Tim.

[Edited by bigump56 on Oct 27th, 2005 at 10:14 AM]

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

You have a gift for the English language.

[RPatrino]

PWL,are you saying you ask for help from the PU when you are in B or C because you are "straight-lined" on the play? You need to "splain" me, because I don't get it.

B, and C (particularly) can be troublesome if you don't move and fight to get to the 45 degree angle. That is where the running lane starts, for those that don't know. I just don't see how you can be straightlined if you're moving properly.

I have asked for help on the pulled foot twice in the last 5 years. Well, actually, once. I wanted to ask a second time but my old Smitty partner was convering third with no one on base on a ground ball, so he wasn't there to ask.

Bob P.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by BigUmp56
This is the last thing I am going to add to this thread. If I know I got the call right. I'm not asking for help, either. But, somehow all this other stuff gets added into the post by certain people. I haven't gone to the home plate umpire in a long time. If Tee doesn't want to or feel he needs to get help that is fine and dandy. That is what starts all the fireworks. His belittle of me and other posters. He is the one that gets off base, if you know what I mean. Right now, him and his cronies are ripping someone over the spelling of a word. Even pulling out their dictionairies. I may come off as harse, but I refuse to be patronized. To know me is to love me.

PWL,

Lord knows Tee and I don't always agree, but this is one of the times he is on the money.

You're the one who is belittling him for not going along with your "feel good" approach to umpiring. Tee responds to your nonsense and tries to give you some sound advice, and you dismiss it without even considering he might be right.

Just because some of us agree with Tim that you should be able to move to the developing play and set yourself to make the right call, doesn't mean were his "cronies." It means that you may want to get over yourself for a minute and consider we simply are in agreement on this issue.

If you feel you were straight lined and possibly missed the swipe tag or pulled foot, the first thing you should do is sell the call with confidence! After you've made the call, wait for any continuing action to relax and then turn your back to the close call and hustle back to your position.

If the manager comes out and is granted time to discuss the call with you, tell him what you saw. When you have the discussion you need to be confident in your explaination. More often than not you will convince him that going to your partner for help is going to be a conference made in futility. If he insists that you ask for help, the proper protocol is to grant his request. That doesn't mean your not going to ultimately make the call yourself. It means your simply going to have a discussion with your partner.

Most of the time when a manager asks for my partner and I to have a conference, we discuss one of the MILFS in the stands. The reason we do this, is we are all about making our own calls!

My opinion, is whiney coaches who argue a judgement call, can lay back and try to piss up a rope. It's my call, and as long as I've made it to the best of my ability, no amount of "huddling up" is going to change my mind.

In 15 years of umpiring, I've only overturned myself twice because of a partners input. Both times were early in my career and had to do with poor positioning. After learning how to be in the right position to avoid being blocked out, I've never had another umpire tell me anything I already didn't know myself.

You stated that you've never ejected a coach. I find that hard to believe, but I'll take you at your word. Now you advocate going for help if you think you missed a call. Going for help because a manager thinks you should is one thing. Going for help because you think you should due to poor positioning is another matter entirely.

The point the guys are trying to make to you is that we've learned through experience that this playing nicey nice with the coaches will make you a whipping boy for them. Make your own calls, eject without predjudice, and stop being such a pu$$y!


Tim.

[Edited by bigump56 on Oct 27th, 2005 at 10:14 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

Can I get an AMEN?

[lawump]

Not that anyone asked, but here are MY random thoughts about various things discussed at various points in this thread:

1) At umpire school and at the UDP (now known as PBUC) camp in 1997, we were taught (among other things) to say loudly and clearly (at the proper time), "infield fly, batter's out" or "infield fly, if fair"...which ever was appropriate for the particular play.

2) We were also taught that the home plate umpire has PRIMARY responsibility on check swings and he was to say, "Ball, no he didn't go" or "yes, you went" as appropriate. However, if the defense appealed, the base umpire was to call what he saw, no matter which position he was in (A, B or C).

3) We were taught that with no runners on, the home plate umpire, on a ground ball in the infield, trailed the batter runner to first, to (a) watch for a possible running lane violation (interference), but more likely (b) to stay with the ball on an overthrow to rule on anything involving dead ball territory/fan interference. It definitely was NOT to assist on a pulled foot or a swipe tag past the 45-foot line (to see why the plate umpire shouldn't be watching for a pulled foot, see #6 below).

4) On an uncaught third strike we were to (1) if a check swing was involved use the proper mechanic as discussed in #2 above. (2) Give the appropriate strike mechanic (either called strike three or a point to the right if a swing and a miss). (3) Signal safe and say "no catch, no catch" if appropriate OR signal out (with a fist out in front of the chest) and say "that's a catch". (4) If uncaught and the runner is going to first, use the same mechanics as you would use if the ball was put into play.

5) In my opinion there has been a change in umpiring philosophy since 1997. It has gone from, "I have my calls, you have your calls, and we'll each stay the hell away from the other's call" to "let's all get together and huddle on close plays." Seriously, there are pluses on both sides. However, in my opinion the change has swung too far in the favor of "let's get together", especially on the amateur level.

As an example, it seems like in every other game I work I have coaches coming out asking for help on plays that I would never, ever go for help on. AND THEY ARE PLAYS THAT THEY SHOULD NEVER EXPECT FOR THE UMPIRE TO GET HELP ON. Yet, they do. Why? They ask for me to get help because other umpires in prior games have set a bad precedent by agreeing to ask for help in situations where they shouldn't rather than having the guts to stick by their call and telling the coach that the call stands. Let me give two examples of coaches coming out asking me to get help where the coach should never have expected me to get help:

Last weekend, I was the base umpire. R1, no out. Ground ball to F6 who throws to F4. F4 drops the ball, and, as he never brought his hands together, I ruled it was a drop and the runner was safe. Defensive coach comes to argue. He wanted me to get help from the plate umpire. Request denied. As I told him, "I'm not going to get help from someone a hundred feet away when I had the whole play 10 feet in front of me." He was mad that I wouldn't get help, and stormed off. But the key is: HE LEFT. The argument was over in a minute (not five minutes after a huddle) and the game resumed. (As an aside one father at this game actually gets it. A father of a player on the losing team came to my partner and I after the game and said that we were the first umpires all year that actually had control of the game and handled everything "fairly and consitently".)

Another example, earlier this season. R1 no outs. Ground ball 25 feet up the line. Batter is slow getting out of the box. Pitcher fields the ball and has a tag attempt on the runner well before the 45-foot line. I (the plate umpire) signal safe and say "no tag!, no tag!". After the play, the defensive coach (who could have no idea if there was a tag or not from the first base dugout) comes out to argue. He gets more animated as the discussion progesses, but nothing over-the-top. However, he then asks for me to get help. I tell him, "that's my call, and I had a perfect view, I don't need help". He starts to walk away from me and toward my partner who is standing in "B". I say, "Don't go out there, that's my call, if you want to talk about it you talk to me." He tells me as he continues toward my parter, "He can help you." He then says to my partner, "Come on blue, you have to help him on that play." Before he even finishes the sentence he is ejected. GOOD-BYE. And anyone who wouldn't eject a coach for doing that in this situation needs to get some guts.

I'm all for getting together to get home-run vs. a ground rule double or home-run vs. foul ball calls right. And I'm even in favor of getting together when a truly weird situation occurs (although this should be rare). But damn, outs and safes, balls and strikes, fair and fouls, balks and a bunch of other stuff are routine and shouldn't require the amount of conferences I see amateur umpires having.

6) As I have posted on one of the internet boards during this past season, FAR to many amateur base umpires fail to get into a good position to see plays at first. Never mind when they start in "C", but even when they start in "A". Nothing says "untrained" more than an umpire asking for help on a pulled foot at first when there were no runners on base to begin with. I don't understand how this happens.

If we first, get our 90-degree angle; second, watch the throw as it is released by the fielder toward first and follow the ball until it is halfway toward first; AND third, adjust our position away from a perfect 90-degree angle when we see that the throw is not true...then we should always be in position to see a pulled foot and/or swipe tag. Too many umpires (1) come set in a bad spot (often too close to the bag or at a bad angle) AND (2) fail to adjust when there is a poor throw to first.

As for starting in "B" or "C" the trick is to move toward the 45-foot line, and not toward first. The other trick, is to make sure that your starting position (where you stand as the pitch is about to be delivered) is not too deep (too close to the infield skin). I was told by Tom Lepperd (formerly a PBUC evaluator, now an MLB executive) that when I was in "B" or "C" to be at least one step in front of the midway point between the back of the mound and the beginning of the infield dirt. That is you should be one step closer to the mound than the infield dirt. That is the only way you're going to have a chance to get the proper angle at first or third. If you start in the right spot...After that its all about moving toward the correct subsequent spot to get the angle for the play at first (running toward the 45-foot line and not toward first base).

One poster has said that when starting in "C" the initial throw isn't always to first base, and I believe suggested that as a result, the base umpire could be out of position to see a pulled foot on the subsequent play at first. Let's take a typical example: R1, R2. Ground ball to F6 who is going to try to turn a 6-4-3 double play.

As the base umpire, our first steps (from our initial "C" position) have to be in a straight line toward the first base side of the mound. This straight line should be parallel to the second base cutout. At no time should we move toward second base. After a few steps we come set and see the play at second base. We record the call (out or safe) in our head. We then move toward the 45-foot line. As we are moving toward the 45-foot line we signal and vocalize the call we have already made in our head on the play at second.

We then come set and see and call the play at first. If you chase the first play into second (or even third) you absolutely have no chance to get the proper angle at first. If you resist the urge to chase the play into second (and having taught a lot of local clinics in the Carolinas I know that this is a strong urge) you CAN get the proper angle at first to see a pulled foot or swipe tag.

There I'm done with this little rant/diatribe.
(oops, I lied...edited at 4:33 p.m. on 10/27 to fix a spelling mistake)

[Edited by lawump on Oct 27th, 2005 at 04:31 PM]

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by lawump
5) In my opinion there has been a change in umpiring philosophy since 1997. It has gone from, "I have my calls, you have your calls, and we'll each stay the hell away from the other's call" to "let's all get together and huddle on close plays." Seriously, there are pluses on both sides. However, in my opinion the change has swung too far in the favor of "let's get together", especially on the amateur level.

I definitely see this trend as well - it's obvious MLB has changed and in NCAA baseball, we are pretty much instructed the same way.

I think those days of "you get a pay check just like I do, get your calls right on your own" are fading fast. The issue in this umpiring "transitional phase" is educating when to get help and how to do it.

Judging by your examples, you definitely have a "clue". The problem is, at the amateur level, there is quite a varying degree of officiating experience. Thus, coaches will use this to try and get umpires to overule each other.

Excellent post - one of the best I've read in a long time.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco

I definitely see this trend as well - it's obvious MLB has changed and in NCAA baseball, we are pretty much instructed the same way.

I think those days of "you get a pay check just like I do, get your calls right on your own" are fading fast. The issue in this umpiring "transitional phase" is educating when to get help and how to do it.

Judging by your examples, you definitely have a "clue". The problem is, at the amateur level, there is quite a varying degree of officiating experience. Thus, coaches will use this to try and get umpires to overule each other.

Excellent post - one of the best I've read in a long time.

Agreed. Truly excellent.

Most of those umpires asking their partners for help start in what we like to call D-plus (or C-minus) or B-plus (or A-minus). They stand closer to one base than the other while in the middle because they simply don't understand why the B and C positions are so important and how to move from them.

These are the same umpires that, on pickoffs at first, move towards the base instead of stepping up forward. Same umpire who run towards third base on a steal of third. Angles are always, ALWAYS more important than distance and a good, hard-working base umpire will almost always be able to get a good angle.

Two seasons ago I had a similar ejection. A manager came out and wanted me to get help. I refused, telling him I had a better look at the play than my partner could ever have. He replied, "I'll go ask him myself." I warned him not to do it and when he ignored me and turned to start walking towards my partner, I ejected him.

[LMan]

I may come off as harse, but I refuse to be patronized. To know me is to love me.

"harse?" Isn't that what Unca Bubba rode in to the foon -real?

..by the way, McGriff's called.....they are missing an important contributor, so don't dally here too long.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by lawump
Not that anyone asked, but here are MY random thoughts about various things discussed at various points in this thread:

1) At umpire school and at the UDP (now known as PBUC) camp in 1997, we were taught (among other things) to say loudly and clearly (at the proper time), "infield fly, batter's out" or "infield fly, if fair"...which ever was appropriate for the particular play.

2) We were also taught that the home plate umpire has PRIMARY responsibility on check swings and he was to say, "Ball, no he didn't go" or "yes, you went" as appropriate. However, if the defense appealed, the base umpire was to call what he saw, no matter which position he was in (A, B or C).

3) We were taught that with no runners on, the home plate umpire, on a ground ball in the infield, trailed the batter runner to first, to (a) watch for a possible running lane violation (interference), but more likely (b) to stay with the ball on an overthrow to rule on anything involving dead ball territory/fan interference. It definitely was NOT to assist on a pulled foot or a swipe tag past the 45-foot line (to see why the plate umpire shouldn't be watching for a pulled foot, see #6 below).

4) On an uncaught third strike we were to (1) if a check swing was involved use the proper mechanic as discussed in #2 above. (2) Give the appropriate strike mechanic (either called strike three or a point to the right if a swing and a miss). (3) Signal safe and say "no catch, no catch" if appropriate OR signal out (with a fist out in front of the chest) and say "that's a catch". (4) If uncaught and the runner is going to first, use the same mechanics as you would use if the ball was put into play.

5) In my opinion there has been a change in umpiring philosophy since 1997. It has gone from, "I have my calls, you have your calls, and we'll each stay the hell away from the other's call" to "let's all get together and huddle on close plays." Seriously, there are pluses on both sides. However, in my opinion the change has swung too far in the favor of "let's get together", especially on the amateur level.

As an example, it seems like in every other game I work I have coaches coming out asking for help on plays that I would never, ever go for help on. AND THEY ARE PLAYS THAT THEY SHOULD NEVER EXPECT FOR THE UMPIRE TO GET HELP ON. Yet, they do. Why? They ask for me to get help because other umpires in prior games have set a bad precedent by agreeing to ask for help in situations where they shouldn't rather than having the guts to stick by their call and telling the coach that the call stands. Let me give two examples of coaches coming out asking me to get help where the coach should never have expected me to get help:

Last weekend, I was the base umpire. R1, no out. Ground ball to F6 who throws to F4. F4 drops the ball, and, as he never brought his hands together, I ruled it was a drop and the runner was safe. Defensive coach comes to argue. He wanted me to get help from the plate umpire. Request denied. As I told him, "I'm not going to get help from someone a hundred feet away when I had the whole play 10 feet in front of me." He was mad that I wouldn't get help, and stormed off. But the key is: HE LEFT. The argument was over in a minute (not five minutes after a huddle) and the game resumed. (As an aside one father at this game actually gets it. A father of a player on the losing team came to my partner and I after the game and said that we were the first umpires all year that actually had control of the game and handled everything "fairly and consitently".)

Another example, earlier this season. R1 no outs. Ground ball 25 feet up the line. Batter is slow getting out of the box. Pitcher fields the ball and has a tag attempt on the runner well before the 45-foot line. I (the plate umpire) signal safe and say "no tag!, no tag!". After the play, the defensive coach (who could have no idea if there was a tag or not from the first base dugout) comes out to argue. He gets more animated as the discussion progesses, but nothing over-the-top. However, he then asks for me to get help. I tell him, "that's my call, and I had a perfect view, I don't need help". He starts to walk away from me and toward my partner who is standing in "B". I say, "Don't go out there, that's my call, if you want to talk about it you talk to me." He tells me as he continues toward my parter, "He can help you." He then says to my partner, "Come on blue, you have to help him on that play." Before he even finishes the sentence he is ejected. GOOD-BYE. And anyone who wouldn't eject a coach for doing that in this situation needs to get some guts.

I'm all for getting together to get home-run vs. a ground rule double or home-run vs. foul ball calls right. And I'm even in favor of getting together when a truly weird situation occurs (although this should be rare). But damn, outs and safes, balls and strikes, fair and fouls, balks and a bunch of other stuff are routine and shouldn't require the amount of conferences I see amateur umpires having.

6) As I have posted on one of the internet boards during this past season, FAR to many amateur base umpires fail to get into a good position to see plays at first. Never mind when they start in "C", but even when they start in "A". Nothing says "untrained" more than an umpire asking for help on a pulled foot at first when there were no runners on base to begin with. I don't understand how this happens.

If we first, get our 90-degree angle; second, watch the throw as it is released by the fielder toward first and follow the ball until it is halfway toward first; AND third, adjust our position away from a perfect 90-degree angle when we see that the throw is not true...then we should always be in position to see a pulled foot and/or swipe tag. Too many umpires (1) come set in a bad spot (often too close to the bag or at a bad angle) AND (2) fail to adjust when there is a poor throw to first.

As for starting in "B" or "C" the trick is to move toward the 45-foot line, and not toward first. The other trick, is to make sure that your starting position (where you stand as the pitch is about to be delivered) is not too deep (too close to the infield skin). I was told by Tom Lepperd (formerly a PBUC evaluator, now an MLB executive) that when I was in "B" or "C" to be at least one step in front of the midway point between the back of the mound and the beginning of the infield dirt. That is you should be one step closer to the mound than the infield dirt. That is the only way you're going to have a chance to get the proper angle at first or third. If you start in the right spot...After that its all about moving toward the correct subsequent spot to get the angle for the play at first (running toward the 45-foot line and not toward first base).

One poster has said that when starting in "C" the initial throw isn't always to first base, and I believe suggested that as a result, the base umpire could be out of position to see a pulled foot on the subsequent play at first. Let's take a typical example: R1, R2. Ground ball to F6 who is going to try to turn a 6-4-3 double play.

As the base umpire, our first steps (from our initial "C" position) have to be in a straight line toward the first base side of the mound. This straight line should be parallel to the second base cutout. At no time should we move toward second base. After a few steps we come set and see the play at second base. We record the call (out or safe) in our head. We then move toward the 45-foot line. As we are moving toward the 45-foot line we signal and vocalize the call we have already made in our head on the play at second.

We then come set and see and call the play at first. If you chase the first play into second (or even third) you absolutely have no chance to get the proper angle at first. If you resist the urge to chase the play into second (and having taught a lot of local clinics in the Carolinas I know that this is a strong urge) you CAN get the proper angle at first to see a pulled foot or swipe tag.

There I'm done with this little rant/diatribe.
(oops, I lied...edited at 4:33 p.m. on 10/27 to fix a spelling mistake)

[Edited by lawump on Oct 27th, 2005 at 04:31 PM]

Excellent post, lawump. I have a question though. You stated in #3 that you would explain in #6 why the PU should not be watching for a pulled foot. I never saw the explanation. You did explain how the BU should be in position to get the call himself. Could you explain why the plate umpire should not see the pulled foot, since he is looking right at it?

This happened to me last year. I was the PU in a Varsity HS game between cross-town rivals. First play of the game, ground ball to F6, throw a bit off line, fairly close play at first. 1B had his foot on the base, but tried a swipe tag but missed. My partner makes no call, looks up at me and says, "waddya got?" I told him I had the plate. He gave me an exasperated look, then made the safe sign. Had he asked me a specific question, I would have given him an answer, but I didn't know if he wanted a pulled foot, or a swipe tag, or did the ball beat the runner, or what? He laid into me after the game, and I told him to ask a specific question when coming for help, and that he should have gotten it himself anyway, it wasn't that difficult. He came up with lame excuses, and that was that. He does weird things often, so I wasn't too surprised he would blame me.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Tim C
I have NEVER, nor will I ever, say: "Batter's Out!"

T

Tee, if the batter is not entitled to run (first base is occupied with fewer than two out) in a FED game you're supposed to verbalize "forcefully" that the batter is out. CB 8.4.1k

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Tim C
Sorry to disagree with anything you said because I think we are twins when considering the need for accountability in umpiring and making your own call.

I ask simply that you read my words carefully:

I have stated for the last nine years on the internet that I have NEVER asked for help on a swipe tag/pulled foot at first base. I have never, however, said that I should not have asked.

I went to Professional Umpire school in 1982 and 1986 and NEVER (EVER) did they teach at school to say: "No, he didn't go!" It must have been on the day I missed class. :-}

Tee

"No, he didn't go" arrived in 1990 or 91. AFTER you have left Florida.

[lawump]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

Excellent post, lawump. I have a question though. You stated in #3 that you would explain in #6 why the PU should not be watching for a pulled foot. I never saw the explanation. You did explain how the BU should be in position to get the call himself. Could you explain why the plate umpire should not see the pulled foot, since he is looking right at it?

[/B]

The explanation in #6 is as you thought...with no one on there is no excuse, IMHO, as to why a base umpire should need help if he uses proper mechanics, thus the plate umpire should focus on a running lane violation (if applicable) and overthrows.