4th Out? Count Run? Here's More...

[JJ]

The NCAA rules editor has given us a ruling on the situation where the 3rd out of an inning is followed by the BR being thrown out at first - just in case you want to check it out -
http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/baseb...clarifications

[Bfair]

I tell ya JJ, there is a lot of stuff in these rulings of PBUC and NCAA that seems to disagree with certain positions taken of other "authoritative sources" from previous threads.

It seems these rulings :
(1) refer to the actions as being appeal plays.
(2) it also refers to these advantageous outs being declared because a runner is "forced" to go to first base.

So, now that we have rulings by PBUC and NCAA saying a runner is "forced" to go to first base it would seem that although the specific action does not meet the definition, it is officially interpreted as being a force play.

This seems exactly opposite of the stance previously taken by Childress and Willson who said a BR is not "forced" to go to first base.

Am I wrong here?

With these official interpretations surpassing the "authoritative opinions" of Childress and Willson, I must now ask about the Fed (as was discussed in a previous thread). Would a runner not making the effort to obtain first base (or one he is forced to) be an automatic call of "out" as an advantageous 4th out thereby possibly negating runs scored???

What's your opinion??

Steve

[Gee]

Official ruling? Only if you do Minor League or NCAA ball. I don't. It is not a force and it is not an appeal. I don't buy it.......YET. G.

[ump24]

I spoke with Rich Fetchiet, Secretary Rules Editor, NCAA. He said that whenever possible, when rules interpretations arose that he would attempt to align NCAA with the pro interp. Obviously there are times when this is impossible due to rules differences. The NAPBL manual will become a more useful tool now, I suppose. Looking at the interps released to date, it seems as though this is holding true.

[blarson]

NO force out, no appeal. This is covered plainly in OBR. The run doesn't count ! I guess you can call this an appeal because of the 4th out situation but still, no force.

4.09
HOW A TEAM SCORES. (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter runner before he touches first base

[Gee]

One, Umpire 24 posted that Rich said he would try to align NCAA rulings with Pro interps. I'm sure he is talking about rulings from NAPBL/PBUC. Yes, that is pro but only Minor league. Does he accept PBUC's recent ruling that you can get two outs on the same runner at the same base? Major League baseball has not accepted that ruling nor the Non appeal/non force out at first base.

Two, Blarson posted that "I guess you can call this an appeal" I don't. J/R calls it a NON appeal. There are, I believe, five possible appeal situations in the OBR and this isn't one of them. In my opinion this new Fourth out NON appeal ruling by the PBUC and now the NCAA conflicts with the OBR in more than one way. Fortunately, I only do OBR.G.

[blarson]

I don't have a copy of J/R. Based on authoratative opionions would you count the run or not?

I think I see where you are going. The third out was not made by the BR, the fouth out was so you have a run.

The sitch mentioned that the BR was injured and could not continue. If defense 'appeals' that the runner did not touch first do we acknowledge that or not. Do we look at this as a play before the BR touches first since he has not run past the base and therefore hasn't missed it?

Thanks,

[Gee]

First off, get a copy of J/R. Very informative and helpfull. Send $25, which includes shipping and handling to,Rick Roder
P.O. Box 2
Remsen, IA. 51050

Second, Of course I have a copy but I do not agree with the ruling, along with Major League Baseball, OBR, my interpreter and my Association. Minor league ball and NCAA ball have accepted it. I don't do either.

The B/R can never, ever, be put out on a force play, never. However, if you accept it, no run scores and if you don't, the run scores.

Their have been a lot of bizzare sitches to show this play. Take this one, it is more realistic.

Sitch, R3 and R2, 3 and 2 on the batter and 2 outs, OBR.

(Originaly I inadvertently had bases loaded, I have corrected that, sorry for the mixup.)G.

R3 is coming in on the windup. B hits a one hopper to F6, R3 scores then F6 tags out R2 in the baseline for the third out. B/R sees the third out and heads for the dugout before reaching first. F6 throws the ball to F3 who tags first and appeals to YOU for the fourth out to nullify the run. It's your call.

It's just a bone head play by F6, he should know better. I am not going to consider the appeal, score the run.

Third, If the runner reached but missed the bag on that play, before the ball arrived, it's a different can of worms.

If the runner missed the bag and then ran THROUGH it and is subsequently tagged or appealed out, the run would not score.

However, if the runner ROUNDED the base, heading for second, without touching it and is tagged out scrambling back, the run would score in OBR.

However, the run wouldn't score in Minor League ball as the NAPBL/PBUC has recently ruled that they will allow an appeal to the missed base for the fourth out. I don't think the NCAA has caught up to the PBUC yet on that ruling.

The OBR does not allow two outs by the same runner on the same base. Now the Minor Leagues do. Hey, who said it was going to be easy. G.

[Edited by Gee on May 4th, 2001 at 12:42 AM]

Gee:

Correct me if I'm wrong but the tag of the runner in your example is a force so the run wouldn't count anyway. No need to go first for an appeal. Let me know if I'm reading it wrong.

I think the logic in the PBUC ruling is it's two seperate plays. OBR says you can't have two outs at the same base on the same runner. He is considered touching the base when he went by it but was then tagged trying to advance. It's two seperate questions. If they don't appeal it then run scores, if they do it doesn't. There's a some logic there. I didn't agree when they made it but I'm coming around.

[Thane Yennie]

Once again this goofy ruling has reared it's ugly head. I think we need to start seeing what is in the rule and quit trying to put crap into the rule that is not there.
blarson quoted from the rule book 4.09 and the exception (which I give again) "A run shall not score if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the THIRD OUT (my emphasis) is made (1) by the B/R before he touches first base...." It doesn't say the fourth out or the advantageous out or whatever the hell you want to call it. It says the THIRD OUT.
Given R2 and R3, R3 stealing home and scoring as the B/R hits a roller to F6 who tags R2 for the non-forced THIRD OUT, after R3 scores, end of inning. See defintions section term INNING, 5.07 When three offensive players are legally put out, that team takes the field ane the opposing team becomes the offensive team. And one other interp I can not recall where it is that state the next inning begins as soon as the third out is called in the bottom of any inning. Thane

[Gee]

First off Mike, A B/R can never, ever be retired on a force play, never. Read OBR #2 Force. With that said let's go to the play.

I'm not sure what you are referring to but I think it is the play when the B/R missed but rounded first and then was tagged scrambling back.

You are correct when you say it is two different plays. One,When he is tagged for being off the base and two, when they appeal first for him missing it.

With only the first one,which would be the third out, the run would score. However if theygot the second one it would supercede the first one and the run wouldn't score because the runner never reached first, right.

Nowthe skipper comes out and says that the B/R is assumed to have touched the bag when he rounds it and stays in the vicinity of the bag and scrambles back.

That is true in all of baseball but it won't hold up on an appeal now in Minor league Baseball and anyone else using that new ruling. The run will not score.

As you said the Major league will not allow the same runner to make two outs on the same base. However Minor league baseball now does.

I Don't know who, where or when they said a runner can't make two outs on the same base. He can make two outs on two different bases. Two outs can be made at the same base by two different runners.

Actually, all the NAPBL/PBUC did was cancel the "No runner can be put out twice at the same base" rule. G.

[Edited by Gee on May 2nd, 2001 at 07:23 AM]

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Gee


First off Mike, A B/R can never, ever be retired on a force play, never. Read OBR #2 Force. With that said let's go to the play.

Here is the NCAA ruling referenced in the post which started this thread:

"PLAY: Two outs, R3 and R2. The batter singles to the outfield, but injures himself coming out of the box and cannot continue to first base. R3 scores easily. R2 is thrown out at the plate for the third out. The catcher then throws to first base for a fourth out on the batter-runner.

RULING: This would be considered a live ball appeal. The out at first base would be considered an advantageous out for the defense and the very fact that they made that play would indicate their choice of this fourth out. Since the batter-runner was out on a force out, R3’s run would not count.

Please tell me from this ruling :
1) what is meant when they refer to "appeal". Appeal of what?

2) it seems I read the last sentence as saying "Since the batter-runner was out on a force out..." Therefore, the NCAA has STATED IN THEIR OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION that BR going to first is, indeed, a force out. Since it is THEIR interpretation of THEIR rule, would that not mean that it IS a force out, regardless of how YOU interpret THEIR rule?

3) Do you not accept official interpretation?

4) In your earlier post you stated this interpretation (which matches that of PBUC) is not accepted by MLB. Can you direct us where to specifically look to find out where MLB has specifically disclaimed this interpretation? Or is that just YOUR assumption? I would like to see where MLB has gone against this ruling by stating they don't accept it. Please direct us with fact. Your statements carry little weight against "official interpretation" unless you can back them with fact.

Just my opinion,

Steve

[Gee]

If you read my first post you will better understand what I said. Here is what I said.

"SNIP"

"Official ruling? Only if you do Minor League or NCAA ball. I don't. It is not a force and it is not an appeal. I don't buy it.......YET. G."

I'll stand by that.

Yes, the NCAA has stated, in THEIR official interpretation, that the batter runner going to first is indeed a force out.
It is THEIR written interpretation for THEIR written rule in THEIR Association. That is what I said.

If you want to follow the NCAA ruling that a B/R can be put out on a force play in any Baseball other than the NCAA and probably the Minor Leagues, be my guest. You have that right. I simply do not accept it under OBR, just like I do not follow the OFFICIAL FED rules in my H/S games. We use OBR. Aren't the fed RULES official? Of course they are BUT ONLY WHEN YOU ARE PLAYING UNDER FED RULES, Get my point.

It is my opinion that this first came up in a ruling from the J/R Interpretation book. Mike Fitzpatrick of PBUC accepted that ruling and then NCAA followed them.

Either Mike Fitzpatrick or Carl Childress said, at the time of the ruling, that MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL has not accepted their ruling. Major League Baseball is in no way bound by the rulings made by PBUC. They don't have to DISCLAIM them. PBUC has as much to do with Major League ball as the NCAA does. They are separate bodies and they make their own rulings.

J/R carries the ruling as a NON-APPEAL. When Rick Roder was questioned about this ruling in an e-mail exchange he said, "It is NOT a force and it is NOT an appeal". Rest my case.

Their are, I believe, five possible appeal situations in the OBR and this IS NOT one of them. As I said before, I, me, do not accept the ruling, Major League baseball doesn't The OBR doesn't, our Association doesn't and our interpreter doesn't and a whole bunch of other people do not. Please don't let me stop you from accepting it, it's your call. G.

[ump24]

but this time he's right. The NCAA has issued an official interpretation regarding the force out at first. If you work NCAA ball then you must not be so remiss as to discard this ruling. It is how they want it called and therefore if you wish to have any credibility you must apply the rules as they are written. I am not going to get into the arguement of what OBR says or doesn't say. I don't know what OBR says and really don't care. I don't work any level that plays under OBR. I will say this, though. I would definitely say PBUC is authoritative. To not follow their lead would probably be very foolish as to accurately enforcing rules.

The debate over the runner being forced to first base at the NCAA level is over. Rich Fetchiet has spoken. For now he is the final word at the NCAA level. If you wish to argue OBR on this issue start another thread. Don't try and confuse two issues. I agree with Fetchiet's interpretation. And for the first time, I must admit, I agree with Bfair on this one! (grin)

[Gee]

I agree with you 100%. However you jusy don't seem to understand what trhe issue is.

NCAA has passed a ruling, It is official for NCAA games. I do not do NCAA games therefore it is not official for my games.

Rule changes become official for the league or leagues that that particular body is ruling for, NOT all of baseball. I have made it quite clear that I do not do NCAA games but Bfair insists that I should accept their ruling. I do not do Minor League Baseball but Bfair insists that I should follow their ruling. You appear to accept that. I do not.

Their are several different ruling bodies:

Major league Baseball.
Minor League baseball.
OBR.
NCAA.
FED.
And a bunch of others like LL, Pony, Babe Ruth, whatever.


Significant changes in Major League baseball will be published with the new OBR book each year. Their is a section for new rulings. Minor league Baseball rule changes are sometimes published in the NAPBL/PBUC manual. NCAA changes are published in their manual as FED and the rest of them are.

An official rule change in one, doesn't effect the others unless they make it official for their group.

Some groups follow the OBR (LL) but make exceptions to it in their rules. A new ruling by the OBR would be picked up by that group unless they make an exception to it. G.