Rut - Umpire Responsibilities?

[Rog]

I think I'd defer to page 36 #4-b of the NFHS Umpire Manual for the U1 calling that interference call, and leave U2 free to cover the bag.

[JRutledge]

"On fly balls to the infield, come inside the infield, call catch/no catch on foul flies up to both bags and fair flies to the left of second base or taken by the pitcher or catcher."

I think you need to look at #6. This is the more clear reference to your argument.

But then again still, there was not interference. We had a malicious contact on the BR with the 1st Baseman. The Pitcher had already caught the ball, or the contact and the catch was almost at the same time. I was not looking at the catch, I was looking the BR. That is why I saw the football block so clearly.

Originally posted by Rog
I think I'd defer to page 36 #4-b of the NFHS Umpire Manual for the U1 calling that interference call, and leave U2 free to cover the bag.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Rog
I think I'd defer to page 36 #4-b of the NFHS Umpire Manual for the U1 calling that interference call, and leave U2 free to cover the bag.

Rog there's the umpires manual and then there's reality. In HS I rarely work with the same individual more than once. Each umpire (especially the Vets) have their own style.

To me the most important thing is Communication on the Field and a strong Pre-Game in the parking lot or over the phone (if one is running late).

Any manual is a reference tool in which to build on. The important issue is to know what your partner is doing on each play and also communicate on the field.

Personally I like following the guidelines outlined in the manual but if my partner preferes something different it's no big deal as long as I know in advance.

Pete Booth

[badbamaump]

Rut,
Good for you.....you keep quoting the "BOOK" (I tried to get the word to glow for ya but my comp won't do it), the rest of us will call the games....

Tim offered ya a differing viewpoint and you get insulting, fine, like I remind people on the internet: Your opinions and actions will not affect my baseball schedule...

So keep it real wherever you're at man....your dawg don't hunt in these parts.

Will

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by badbamaump
Rut,
Good for you.....you keep quoting the "BOOK" (I tried to get the word to glow for ya but my comp won't do it), the rest of us will call the games....

Tim offered ya a differing viewpoint and you get insulting, fine, like I remind people on the internet: Your opinions and actions will not affect my baseball schedule...

So keep it real wherever you're at man....your dawg don't hunt in these parts.

Will

I think Peter hit it on the head. What we ultimately do is not what the book says, it is what my partner and I do that day. I am like Peter, I rarely work with the same individual. Everyone has their own style, philosophies, and experience. I personally try to do what the book says, but if I have a partner that feels confrontable with another way, that is what I do. I really am not going to put much stock in a person's opinion that I will not work with. This is a discussion board, not a baseball field or diamond. If it was, then I might consider what Tim says. But if you can read, I gave a reference that supported yours, Tim's and Rog's argument. But at the end of the day, you can do what you feel. You are the one that has to be confrontable with what you do or not. It is not a matter of what is right or wrong, it is a matter of what you feel confrontable with. Some of us in certain parts of the country are suggested to do the NF mechanics for HS games, or we do not get playoffs or get good evaluations. If that is not how you need to operate, then do what you do in your area.


And in the end, my schedule, my assignors, the schools I work does not have a problem with anything I do. So why am I trying to explain this to hard headed individuals. You have to look yourself in the mirror, as do I. I am always going to do what I feel is right. And both of us can have a difference of that "right" is.

Peace

[David B]

Will has hit the nail on the head.

You can do what you want in your parts, but around here, PU is going to make the call every time.

And if I'm doing an evaluation on a BU who poaches the call, then he's going to get written up also.

You keep quoting the FED manual, well look at the parts on fly ball coverage. Who has the fly ball in the infield, who has fair and foul.

Both in the play that you wrote about are PU's responsibility. If PU needs help he will ask BU what he saw.

That's the correct way.

If you don't want our opinions, then please don't ask for them.

Thanks
David

Originally posted by JRutledge

I think Peter hit it on the head. What we ultimately do is not what the book says, it is what my partner and I do that day. I am like Peter, I rarely work with the same individual. Everyone has their own style, philosophies, and experience. I personally try to do what the book says, but if I have a partner that feels confrontable with another way, that is what I do. I really am not going to put much stock in a person's opinion that I will not work with. This is a discussion board, not a baseball field or diamond. If it was, then I might consider what Tim says. But if you can read, I gave a reference that supported yours, Tim's and Rog's argument. But at the end of the day, you can do what you feel. You are the one that has to be confrontable with what you do or not. It is not a matter of what is right or wrong, it is a matter of what you feel confrontable with. Some of us in certain parts of the country are suggested to do the NF mechanics for HS games, or we do not get playoffs or get good evaluations. If that is not how you need to operate, then do what you do in your area.


And in the end, my schedule, my assignors, the schools I work does not have a problem with anything I do. So why am I trying to explain this to hard headed individuals. You have to look yourself in the mirror, as do I. I am always going to do what I feel is right. And both of us can have a difference of that "right" is.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by David B
Will has hit the nail on the head.

You can do what you want in your parts, but around here, PU is going to make the call every time.

And if I'm doing an evaluation on a BU who poaches the call, then he's going to get written up also.

You keep quoting the FED manual, well look at the parts on fly ball coverage. Who has the fly ball in the infield, who has fair and foul.

Both in the play that you wrote about are PU's responsibility. If PU needs help he will ask BU what he saw.

That's the correct way.

If you don't want our opinions, then please don't ask for them.

Thanks
David

I will be accused of flaming you, but that is not my intention. I did not ask any questions about mechanics in the post. I did not ask who had what and who should make what call. I only asked about what call you would have on a particular play. Others choose to harp on the fact that the PU has this, and the PU has that. I personally do not care. I do not do what others think is right, I do what my partner and I do is right for that day. I always try to have a pregame with my partner so that WE can be on the same page. And because I work with guys that have all types of backgrounds, we may do some Pro Mechanics, some college mechanics or any mechanics that an individual was taught by their association or camp they attended.

And if you go back and actually read the original post, you will see that I never made a "interference" or catch/no catch call. We had a situation of malicious contact. I did not realize that malicious contact was only one person's call. And really we had no interference, because the ball was caught. The thing I wanted to really know, was whether or not you are going to have something for the BR knocking the fielder on his azz!!! The BR ran completely over the first baseman with a block you see on highlights of the NFL. Was the fielder attempting to make the play? Yes, but was the play made by the pitcher, not the first baseman that was knocked over? Yes. I did not realize that "interference" was an appeal situation. But if you want to let the PU make a call of unsportsmanlike behavior only, well that is what you have the right to do.

Now because of the nature of the play we have a possible "interference" call, that is another issue. Because that did not happen here. I appreciate the concern about the mechanics, but the question is about the rules. I do not need help about what the proper mechanic or who has what and when. And if I passed on this, I would have been accused of not applying the rules properly. Because the contact was so obvious and severe that someone need to make some type of call. It just happen to be (with no one on base) that I was watching all the players anyway. And because I was looking there, I clearly saw the entire play. My only concern was that we would have had a fight if SOMEONE would have done nothing. And because the PU was watching the ball, he might not have seen what happen completely. But then again, he had no problem with the call. Either way, I have a coach in my face about why I did call or not call what happen.

Please take your egos out of this. This should have been a rules question and answer, not a philosophy on who has what and when. I shared the play because it was rather unusual, and just wanted input. I already did what I felt was the proper call, I just wanted to see if I would be the only one coming to that conclusion. Sorry most of you could not be professional enough to keep it that way. The "BOOKS" say many things, and if you look hard enough, you will find ambigious things than mechanics that contradict themselves from time to time. That is why a pregame is so important

Peace.


[Edited by JRutledge on Apr 24th, 2001 at 12:54 PM]

[David B]

If you read my posts, I don't care if you do want to flame me or what. I always try to stick to baseball, that is why I am here.

Comments inserted:

Others choose to harp on the fact that the PU has this, and the PU has that. I personally do not care. I do not do what others think is right, I do what my partner and I do is right for that day.
+++++++++++++++++++
that's kind of scary. The comments that have been made are basic mechanics that are the same in every level of ball. Then you don't have to waste time covering them differently before every game with every new partner. Keep it simple.
+++++++++++++++++++++

I always try to have a pregame with my partner so that WE can be on the same page. And because I work with guys that have all types of backgrounds, we may do some Pro Mechanics, some college mechanics or any mechanics that an individual was taught by their association or camp they attended.

And if you go back and actually read the original post, you will see that I never made a "interference" or catch/no catch call. We had a situation of malicious contact. I did not realize that malicious contact was only one person's call.

++++++++++++++++++
You still don't seem to understand what people have been trying to tell you. This is about umpiring. It's not one person's call or another. If you have two umpire they are a team. However, on every call, one umpire has jurisdiction. In other words, what we have tried to say is PU should make the call. If he doesn't then the base umpire should step in and make the right call.
+++++++++++++++++++++++

And really we had no interference, because the ball was caught. The thing I wanted to really know, was whether or not you are going to have something for the BR knocking the fielder on his azz!!! The BR ran completely over the first baseman with a block you see on highlights of the NFL. Was the fielder attempting to make the play? Yes, but was the play made by the pitcher, not the first baseman that was knocked over? Yes. I did not realize that "interference" was an appeal situation.

++++++++++++++++++
Don't know what you're talking about here. Interference is not an appeal play situation. But maybe I just didn't understand.

+++++++++++++++++

But if you want to let the PU make a call of unsportsmanlike behavior only, well that is what you have the right to do.

Now because of the nature of the play we have a possible "interference" call, that is another issue. Because that did not happen here. I appreciate the concern about the mechanics, but the question is about the rules. I do not need help about what the proper mechanic or who has what and when. And if I passed on this, I would have been accused of not applying the rules properly. Because the contact was so obvious and severe that someone need to make some type of call. It just happen to be (with no one on base) that I was watching all the players anyway. And because I was looking there, I clearly saw the entire play. My only concern was that we would have had a fight if SOMEONE would have done nothing. And because the PU was watching the ball, he might not have seen what happen completely. But then again, he had no problem with the call. Either way, I have a coach in my face about why I did call or not call what happen.

+++++++++++++++++
Sounds like a good call, sounds like it was very obvious. Any malicious contact results in an ejection and an out. So there should not be a coach questioning anything.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Please take your egos out of this. This should have been a rules question and answer, not a philosophy on who has what and when. I shared the play because it was rather unusual, and just wanted input. I already did what I felt was the proper call, I just wanted to see if I would be the only one coming to that conclusion.

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In all honesty this is a basic call, and it usually happens at home and between home and first.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sorry most of you could not be professional enough to keep it that way. The "BOOKS" say many things, and if you look hard enough, you will find ambigious things than mechanics that contradict themselves from time to time. That is why a pregame is so important

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you post a question and other people answer the question and then add a little something to the answer, that is very appropriate for a message board. You seem to forget that there are many people who read the boards who never post. The additions about mechanics might clarify the confusion so if the play happens in another game, it might be handled appropriately.

For what it's worth you don't offend me with your comments. However, the way that you handled this post does seem to say a lot about the way that you handle confrontation on the baseball diamond. Everyone has their own style.

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

Please stop reading into everything David. Who cares who has what call and who has it when. You are talking about basic mechanics are the same at every level? In what sport. There is always differences. Believe me, if you work with enough ex-Pro Umpires, believe me, they will tell you things that are not in the the NF Mechanics book. And considering in baseball, many umpires do not even do Fed, but do levels that they do not have to take a single test to be an umpire, you cannot tell me everyone agrees. Many people do not even do NF ball, and I have not seen mechanics books personally in other codes. So I really do not know where you got that from but all areas are just not the same. Maybe you have, but I have never seen a mechanics book in Babe Ruth, Legion, LL, or any of these levels that people do.

And my point about "interference" was that you do not appeal "interference." This is not like a checked swing. You do not go to your partner and say, "did he interfere?!!!" You either have it or you do not. You do not wait for the other guy. And if you do not wait, then it is not your call. I think you guys need to get together on this, because that is not what everyone said. They said that this call was only the PU's call. I showed you references from the NF Mechanics book, you either accept it or you do not. But this was a NF game, so I really do not care about what other codes do as it relates to this game. When I do a level, I try to do what is acceptable for that level, I do not take things back and forth. At least I do not try to.

And let me say this, I officiate Football, Basketball, Baseball and have done Softball. I have not thrown out a coach in any of these sports in about 4 to 5 years. If I have had a problem, I would have had to do something at some point. If I had problems with people, I would have surely had to throw someone out. I have not even come close, and I personally take no pride in giving unsportsmanlike fouls, technical fouls, or restricting coaches to the dugout or throwing a coach out. I take it personally when I have to do such things, and I try my best to avoid those situations. By being approachable and open to discussion I have not needed to take these kind of actions very much at all. So if I have a problem with others, I sure would do better in this category by throwing people out on a regular basis. And as it relates to officials, the only officials that I have ever had any problems with in my career, were people that I did not even know or had hardly met. I had a guy once in basketball (fat and nasty looking official, with non-leather shoes) that was mad at my and my partner because we came in his association and in his words "we were taking his games." We were good, and he was mad that we did not "pay our dues" in his association. But every single official that I have worked with on the field or court has always got along with me very well.


And finally, umpires and officials to me are competition. Because if I do a game, that usually means someone is not doing it. So if I do varsity or college, I have to take the attitude for me to be there, that means someone is not good enough to be there, or I took someones place to be there myself. And believe me, if I am doing a varsity or college contest, someone wants to be in my shoes. So I do what I feel is right and what I was taught. I share my philosophies, if you want to listen you can, if you do not, I personally do not care. Your success and my success are going to be based on what I do, or what you do, not what we do together. And if we all agreed, then this board or any board would not be relevant in any way. I wish I had the power to tell you that what I think is the only way to go, but in the real world that I live that is not what is realistic. So if you have a different attitude about what you do, you are only going to grow if the people around you think you are doing what is right. I have to do the same

Peace.

[badbamaump]

Rut,

Nobody's flamed you from what I can see....You feel persecuted for some reason.....

A couple of things I've noticed:

You've officiated for 5 years with NO ejections??? Ain't gonna happen or you don't know when enough's enough.

Your continued waving of "The Book" at us..... fine enough for references, but you're not citing enough of your actual game experienced to us....

I just made a few comments and you start insinuating that I'm illiterate.....could be, I am a product of Alabama's Publik Edification system.

Rut, like we say down here, you can teach a pig to wrestle, but you can't make him into a silk purse...or something like that LOL....

Rut, as much as I'd like to, I don't think I'm going to bother answering your inane posts...

Will

[David B]

As has been noted you don't seem to want to see both sides of the fence, only the side that benefits you.

As far as mechanics, let me reemphasize.

In every single league that is in existence (or at least in my 23 years of umpiring at every level from NCAA down to t-ball.)

The PU has all fly balls in the infield. .

So if PU has the ball he also has the call. The BU can go get a snicker bar if he wants. If the BU sees something (interference in this case) he can wait and if PU does not make the call he can still call time and after consulting with PU make the correct call. That's what FED wants. Get the call right.

You have called for five years, but consider yourself an expert. Great. There's plently of internet umpires who are also members of that club.

You can learn a lot from the experience on this board, but only if you listen to what others say and then realize there may be a better way than I've done it in the past.

I don't usually waste my time answering post such as yours. I followed your many back-and-forth conflicts on the basketball board and I know your pattern from reading there. See I've only called basketball for 7 years so I read a lot and learn from the guys with more experience.

As Will stated above, I shouldn't have wasted my time.

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by David B
As has been noted you don't seem to want to see both sides of the fence, only the side that benefits you.

As far as mechanics, let me reemphasize.

In every single league that is in existence (or at least in my 23 years of umpiring at every level from NCAA down to t-ball.)

The PU has all fly balls in the infield. .

So if PU has the ball he also has the call. The BU can go get a snicker bar if he wants. If the BU sees something (interference in this case) he can wait and if PU does not make the call he can still call time and after consulting with PU make the correct call. That's what FED wants. Get the call right.

You have called for five years, but consider yourself an expert. Great. There's plently of internet umpires who are also members of that club.

You can learn a lot from the experience on this board, but only if you listen to what others say and then realize there may be a better way than I've done it in the past.

I don't usually waste my time answering post such as yours. I followed your many back-and-forth conflicts on the basketball board and I know your pattern from reading there. See I've only called basketball for 7 years so I read a lot and learn from the guys with more experience.

As Will stated above, I shouldn't have wasted my time.

Thanks
David

WOW!!!! David do me a favor, go back and read the entire context of the discussion. The fact that you still are talking about something that I never asked. I never said who had the fly ball or not. DAVID, CAN YOU READ?!!! I do not think the PU does not have the ball. DAVID, THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. You keep focusing on something that you and only you are saying. My question was about M.A.L.I.C.I.O.U.S. C.O.N.T.A.C.T., nothing else. There was not interference, on this play!!! It is kind of hard to have interference when the ball was caught. And the player that was given a shot with the BR arms up, was like a punt returner waiting for a pooch punt and calling fair catch, but then gets a shoulder block and goes flying in the air. At that time, interference is kind of irrelevant, don't you think?

[Edited by JRutledge on Apr 25th, 2001 at 01:24 AM]

[JRutledge]

David, no one said anything about being an expert. The day I become one in any sport, is the day I need to hang up my whistle, my stripe shirts, my beltless pants, my knickers, my white hat, by combo hat, my ball bag, my dark blue shirts, my light blue shirt and my mask. I did not realize that giving a reference and having a thought about something based on what the BOOKS say, made me an expert. I am sorry that I can see for myself and share that information. God forbid I every give a reference in the rulebook about what a rule says. I really might be going over board then.

Not trying to be funny (why do I keep saying this) but I have not seen a person on this board every officate anything. Well, let me take that back. I have seen Mr. Jenkins do a basketball game. We did work together twice, and believe me, he is every bit as good as an official as he presents here. I am sure that he is also a good baseball umpire, but I have never had the priviledge of seeing him on a diamond. I hope I do work with him one day in baseball.

But I will say this, I have people that I respect greatly. I have people that have been my mentors in officiating, and in some cases life. I think I put a little more stock in what they say and what they think. Let us face it, I do not see how good an umpire or official anyone is by this board. Just because someone says something, that does not mean that they are good at it. And considering that I am a very young official in your eyes, the reality is that I have experience that many 10 year officials do not have. In all the sports I have done, I have been doing varsity from almost the very beginning. This by no means makes me an expert, but I have been around the block a few times. And yes, you do not have to believe me, I do not expect you to. I am just talking on a computer screen. I am not an official that is looking for guidence or help here. It would be really hard to know who is everything they say and who are the fakers. Considering they have taken a few adult to jail in the Chicago land area for child porn and trying to meet a minor as a teacher, I think using this forum or any that does not show the real person is kind of a stretch. I am looking to fellowship and information for officials all over the country though.

I am sorry, but just because you have been around for 10 years, does not make you a better official than someone that has been officiating for 5 necessarily. If you have been doing 10 games a year in the men's rec league or the men's softball league, I do not think that quite compares. Not that this applies to me specificially, but I personally would rather listen to the 5 year official that has been doing college and varsity almost their whole career. And for your information, if you try to do everything right and go for your promotion when eligible, a 5 year guy is and can be at the highest rank that this great state of Lincoln has to offer. And those guys that were in that rank before, had it much easier than someone like myself or Bob for that matter. But that is another conversation. And if things worked out right, a 5 year guy can be a clinician. And if schedule means anything, I personally have a schedule in my sports that rivals almost anyone. So you be the judge. If that makes me an expert, those certainly are your words, but am I a knowledgable and respected veteran where I am, of course. That is certainly not to discount the opinions of others, but I surely am not a spring chicken if you will either.

Peace

Originally posted by David B

You have called for five years, but consider yourself an expert. Great. There's plently of internet umpires who are also members of that club.

You can learn a lot from the experience on this board, but only if you listen to what others say and then realize there may be a better way than I've done it in the past.

I don't usually waste my time answering post such as yours. I followed your many back-and-forth conflicts on the basketball board and I know your pattern from reading there. See I've only called basketball for 7 years so I read a lot and learn from the guys with more experience.

As Will stated above, I shouldn't have wasted my time.

Thanks
David