You can't talk to the batter!

[LMan]

Originally posted by Matthew F

What did you expect Garth? Many experienced umpires either don't want to work "little boy ball" or believe they are "above" working that level of ball. Perhaps if more of these experienced umpires would... ahh, who am I kidding.

....could LL's less-than-generous payscale be part of the problem?

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

I've had high school and college-level training, and associate with a number of veteran umpires, and I think I'm pretty safe in saying the consensus among the umpires I'm familiar with is that standard procedure for an ejected rat who won't leave the field is to tell him he's risking a forfeit for his team.

So please enlighten me - what IS the proper way of handling an ejected participant who refuses to leave the field?

This may apply to my area of the country only, but our umpires get in big trouble if they forfeit a game for any reason other than less than 9 players on the field. Our assignor is adament about this. I once had a coach that would not leave the field so I ejected one player every 30 seconds or so until we got down to 8 players. After every ejection I appointed a new coach and told him to get the head coach off of the field. When he failed to do it, I ejected that player.

Seriously, the best way to handle this is to go stand on the sideline and refuse to restart the game. Eventually, the fans we boo the coach off the field. If the coach comes after you on the sideline and your partner is such a wimp that he will not intervene, go into the other team's dugout , prop your legs up and sip a drink. The coach will not follow you into the other team's dugout and you can camp there all night if you want. I guarantee that within 5 minutes or so, game administration, the fans, or the police will take care of the coach. With cell phones everywhere today, someone will be on the phone to the police.

Peter

[Rich]

Originally posted by dudeinblue
Alright, I had this happen tonight in the AA USSSA 12 year old world series.

The batter is up and I am the PU. He lets 2 beautiful pitches go by that are belt high on the outside corner. After both pitches, he throws his hands up and rolls his eyes and head as if they were terrible calls.

So I say to him in a calm manner, "Batter those balls are strikes buddy, you better swing the bat." The next pitch he swings at a ball 2 feet over his head and strikes out, only to again throw his hands up once more as if it was my mistake. Well, he goes in the dugout and tells about the 4th dugout bench assistant coach (probably his dad), that the umpire was talking to him while he was hitting and that's why he struck out.

So in between innings the guy comes up to me in a calm manner and say, "Blue our player said you were talking to him while he was hitting." So I say, "Well coach, he threw his hands up at me twice and was rolling his eyes and head at me, so I told him that the pitches were strikes and that he better swing the bat."

So the guy points a finger in my face and says, "Don't you ever talk to the batter blue, you do your job. Your job isn't to talk to the batter, don't ever do that again." So I say, "Coach, you don't tell me how to do my job, now go and sit down in the dugout." He says "No, I'm not gonna do it, don't talk to the batters, do your job." I said, "Coach, I'm not gonna tell you again, go sit down, I don't wanna hear another word from you."

He refuses and continues to tell me to do my job, so after warning him for about a 3rd time, I finally say, "You're out of here". So he says naturally, "For WHAT!". So the sherriff behind the back stop says "Lets go coach". And the coach takes a while to leave and I tell him, "Coach, you have 30 seconds to leave this field." He says, "Before what, you kick my a$$?" I said, "No, before your team has to forfeit."

Well, he finally leaves, and of course the team was down 9-0 and ended up getting run-ruled. You might be saying, "Why the heck did Dude post this?"

Well, reason being because I want to hear from you how I handled the situation, what I could or should have done, what your thoughts are on the situation, what you would have done, etc. Feel free to critique me, even if that means calling me a f-ing idiot. Thanks alot

Who would let a "4th assistant coach" get this many words in anyway?

I had a play at the plate last night where the 1st base coach AND the manager/3rd base coach start down to the plate. My first words were, "Bill, turn right around and get back in your coach's box and let your manager do his job." He got the hint.

As far as your comments to the batter, I actually have little problem with it as I probably would've read him the riot act after the first time he threw his hands up and ejected him the second time. He lets two strikes go and then swings at a pitch over his head and it's YOUR fault? Please.

[Rich]

Originally posted by drumbum565
I agree with most of the above replies. Personally I would have ignored him rolling his eyes and such unless he starts questioning my calls verbally or he like looks at me with his eyes the size of baseballs and his chin dropped I will ignore it. And I especially agree with LDUB one thing I tell the people at the meeting i want only the managers to address me if a coach steps out of that dugout without calling time (exception between inngs on his way to or from the coaches box) they are gone right there (I’ve had some problems with teams around here) and if they call time and they want to talk to me I say sit back down and have your mangier come out and talk to me. I feel for one this eliminates the well you told that coach but you didn’t tell me crap; I talk to 1 person from the team and one alone. Also it prevents grandparents, aunts, uncles and, second cousins once removed from coming out and arguing.
However the one thing I don’t agree with is the comment Scallop made. When I started when I was fourteen it was in a summer rec league that had its own set of rules and everything not covered in it went by federation. And in these rules stated that if a player or mangier had 1 minute to leave the park property after being ejected or his team forfeited

Plate meeting: Lineup cards, ground rules, good luck. Anything else is a bunch of verbal masturbation.

[officialtony]

Folks,

The little league world series qualifiers are finished in my area and have gone on to the state level. The word is clear.

* ALL LITTLE LEAGUE OFFICIALS ARE VOLUNTEER *

I attended the district championship game and when the LLWS administrator was told we were OHSAA umpires ( there were three of us watching the umpiring AND the game ) he started networking to get us to do LLWS games for him. He said we would need special training and evaluations, etc., but it would be an honor for us to say we were involved. I asked what the pay structure and expenses program were ( because I already knew the answer ), and when he said it was volunteer, I politely responded with, " I know what my services are worth and they are worth quite a bit more than nothing ). We talked about this conversation after he left us and we understood why we were seeing what we were seeing on the field. That may explain why some people get LLWS games and can " brag " about it.


Also, relative to a coach who refuses to leave . . . someone will be dialing the local police for me and the game will not continue until the coach is gone. If players, fans, parents, or opposing coaches do not want to help out in this situation, I will wait until the time limit is up or my patience has worn thin ( which wouldn't take long ). I would do everything in my power to get the game played. I have never had a forfeit yet. Actually, I have never had a coach absolutely refuse to leave.
Hope I never do.

[Edited by officialtony on Jul 28th, 2005 at 10:10 AM]

[Rich]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

As I was skimming this flamefest, I came across this comment and have to ask, what exactly is your suggestion for dealing with an ejected rat who won't leave the field?

I've had high school and college-level training, and associate with a number of veteran umpires, and I think I'm pretty safe in saying the consensus among the umpires I'm familiar with is that standard procedure for an ejected rat who won't leave the field is to tell him he's risking a forfeit for his team.

So please enlighten me - what IS the proper way of handling an ejected participant who refuses to leave the field?

Ah, Dave, he used "Charlie." That's code for "I went to pro school."

But I can tell him that *I* wouldn't be the one taking the game awaty from the kids, it's the coach that's doing that by his failure to leave.

At the end of the day, forfeit is really the only recourse for somebody who WILL NOT LEAVE. I read Peter's response and that is simply too tiring -- with some teams I'd have to stand there and eject 7-8 players before I could get to 8. What I would do before forfeiting is go to the assistant coaches and tell them that either they remove the coach or I'm going to remove them. Once that's over, there's no adult supervision and the game's forfeited. I may skip that step, if necessary.

Then again, where I live there's no central assignor, so I do what I feel necessary. Of course, I've never forfeited a baseball game, so...

[Rich]

Originally posted by officialtony
Folks,

The little league world series qualifiers are finished in my area and have gone on to the state level. The word is clear.

* ALL LITTLE LEAGUE OFFICIALS ARE VOLUNTEER *

I attended the district championship game and when the LLWS administrator was told we were OHSAA umpires ( there were three of us watching the umpiring AND the game ) he started networking to get us to do LLWS games for him. He said we would need special training and evaluations, etc., but it would be an honor for us to say we were involved. I asked what the pay structure and expenses program were ( because I already knew the answer ), and when he said it was volunteer, I politely responded with, " I know what my services are worth and they are worth quite a bit more than nothing ). We talked about this conversation after he left us and we understood why we were seeing what we were seeing on the field. That may explain why some people get LLWS games and can " brag " about it.


Also, relative to a coach who refuses to leave . . . someone will be dialing the local police for me and the game will not continue until the coach is gone. If players, fans, parents, or opposing coaches do not want to help out in this situation, I will wait until the time limit is up or my patience has worn thin ( which wouldn't take long ). I would do everything in my power to get the game played. I have never had a forfeit yet. Actually, I have never had a coach absolutely refuse to leave.
Hope I never do.

[Edited by officialtony on Jul 28th, 2005 at 10:10 AM]

Tony,

Whatever floats your boat. I work LL games and have worked both District and State tournaments as a volunteer. I also serve as a tournament director and assume I will take on other volunteer roles at some point.

For those who wouldn't consider umpiring a game without getting paid, well, I guess Little League (at the higher tournament level, anyway) just isn't for you. But don't assume that you'd be better than all the umpires out there. I had a crew the other night (3-umpire crew) where each member works HS and NCAA baseball. But this time of the year is LL time for all of us. I make enough money officiating the rest of the year.

--Rich

[officialtony]

Rich,
Thanks for the input.
I didn't get the impession that there were many upper level umpires doing anything other than the higest level LLWS games. I did not mean to imply that I was any better than ANY of the umpires doing LLWS ball. My hat is off to them for giving up their time if they choose to. In our area, there weren't a lot of quality umpires working the LLWS games. It must have just worked out that way. No offense intended.
AND . . . I will tell you, I know there are a LOT of umpires that are better than I. My goal is to change that statement over the next few years.
I do not take offense at your reply. On the contrary, I respect your willingness to contribute. I haven't been around long enough to get involved in the trainng involved for LLWS officiating. I am still trying to attend the classes and clinics I need to move up with the state and possibly college levels. There are only so many hours in a day and I am an amateur umpire. I currently aspire to the high school and college ranks.

Thanks again.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


I had a crew the other night (3-umpire crew) where each member works HS and NCAA baseball. But this time of the year is LL time for all of us.

--Rich

That's great Rich. And as, Hensley, I believe it was noted, the LLWS, over the past couple of years, has seen marked improvement in umpire selection and performance.

Other national level tournaments that I am familiar with also go through a selection process and bring in experienced umpires. Even at the state level, American Legion, for example, utilizes the more experienced umpires from various areas of the state. My son, Matt, will be working the Washington State tournament.

When AAU ran one of it's National Tournaments here and hired me to coordinate umpires, I had folks coming in from all over the west to work the games.

I have a hard time understanding how any organization can, at it's national tournament, just grab any ol' local with gear to umpire it's "World Series". Amazing.

[PeteBooth]

. Originally posted by dudeinblue

Alright, I had this happen tonight in the AA USSSA 12 year old world series.

The batter is up and I am the PU. He lets 2 beautiful pitches go by that are belt high on the outside corner. After both pitches, he throws his hands up and rolls his eyes and head as if they were terrible calls.

So what. I do not care what the player is doing as long as he isn't saying something derogatory or drawing lines. Do not say anything to B1 especially at the younger levels because the message as you found out will get mis-guided.

So in between innings the guy comes up to me in a calm manner and say, "Blue our player said you were talking to him while he was hitting."

I do NOT Talk to assistant coaches unless the Head Coach says so and so will be handling all baseball responsibilities. I only talk to the manager

So I say, "Well coach, he threw his hands up at me twice and was rolling his eyes and head at me, so I told him that the pitches were strikes and that he better swing the bat."

Since you made the mistake of talking to an assistant "you dug yourself a deeper hole" by saying his batter should swing the bat. That's like a coach telling you how to umpire.

So the guy points a finger in my face and says, "Don't you ever talk to the batter blue, you do your job.

Since your game management skills were batting zero at this point as soon as the "finger came in my face" is when the talking stops and it's time for the coach to have a nice day. No sense continuing a conversation which can only escalate and get very heated.

Summary: I hope you learned from this experience. Do not COACH players and only talk to the Coach in Charge.

Pete Booth

[Rich]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
. Originally posted by dudeinblue

Alright, I had this happen tonight in the AA USSSA 12 year old world series.

The batter is up and I am the PU. He lets 2 beautiful pitches go by that are belt high on the outside corner. After both pitches, he throws his hands up and rolls his eyes and head as if they were terrible calls.

So what. I do not care what the player is doing as long as he isn't saying something derogatory or drawing lines. Do not say anything to B1 especially at the younger levels because the message as you found out will get mis-guided.

So in between innings the guy comes up to me in a calm manner and say, "Blue our player said you were talking to him while he was hitting."

I do NOT Talk to assistant coaches unless the Head Coach says so and so will be handling all baseball responsibilities. I only talk to the manager

So I say, "Well coach, he threw his hands up at me twice and was rolling his eyes and head at me, so I told him that the pitches were strikes and that he better swing the bat."

Since you made the mistake of talking to an assistant "you dug yourself a deeper hole" by saying his batter should swing the bat. That's like a coach telling you how to umpire.

So the guy points a finger in my face and says, "Don't you ever talk to the batter blue, you do your job.

Since your game management skills were batting zero at this point as soon as the "finger came in my face" is when the talking stops and it's time for the coach to have a nice day. No sense continuing a conversation which can only escalate and get very heated.

Summary: I hope you learned from this experience. Do not COACH players and only talk to the Coach in Charge.

Pete Booth

As someone who has used the phrase, "stop gesturing at me and swing the bat," I think some are being overly sensitive of this phrase. Sounds to me like good advice if he's standing there and looking at strikes and then showing up the umpire.

You don't care if he throws his hands up? Great. Me? It's showing me up and it will stop. And for those rats that say "Don't talk to my players," I'll talk to anyone I wish. I'm the umpire and will do what it takes in the name of game management.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Ah, Dave, he used "Charlie." That's code for "I went to pro school."

But I can tell him that *I* wouldn't be the one taking the game awaty from the kids, it's the coach that's doing that by his failure to leave.

At the end of the day, forfeit is really the only recourse for somebody who WILL NOT LEAVE. I read Peter's response and that is simply too tiring -- with some teams I'd have to stand there and eject 7-8 players before I could get to 8. What I would do before forfeiting is go to the assistant coaches and tell them that either they remove the coach or I'm going to remove them. Once that's over, there's no adult supervision and the game's forfeited. I may skip that step, if necessary.

Then again, where I live there's no central assignor, so I do what I feel necessary. Of course, I've never forfeited a baseball game, so...

I've been waiting to use the line I got from a mutual friend of ours - "Coach, either you or I are leaving the premises directly. If it's me, then they (pointing to his team) lose."

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

As someone who has used the phrase, "stop gesturing at me and swing the bat," I think some are being overly sensitive of this phrase. Sounds to me like good advice if he's standing there and looking at strikes and then showing up the umpire.

You don't care if he throws his hands up? Great. Me? It's showing me up and it will stop. And for those rats that say "Don't talk to my players," I'll talk to anyone I wish. I'm the umpire and will do what it takes in the name of game management.

Ditto!

These guys would really hate one of my favorite lines to deal with a batter making gestures like that. As he walks off after strike 3, I respond "better bring a tennis racket next time."

[Rich]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

Ditto!

These guys would really hate one of my favorite lines to deal with a batter making gestures like that. As he walks off after strike 3, I respond "better bring a tennis racket next time."

Or as one of our listmates has said, "It doesn't come with batteries. You have to swing it yourself."

[LDUB]

Originally posted by GarthB
I have a hard time understanding how any organization can, at it's national tournament, just grab any ol' local with gear to umpire it's "World Series". Amazing.

As opposed to LL who scours the whole world looking for the biggest schmucks to call their world series