HEY!!! You're not a coach...

ren0901 · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 02:08am

...had this happen in a 14 y/o Pony League tournament game tonight. (Aside, I'm part of the Protest Committee and protests must be decided upon when lodged before a game can continue). I'm not sure if the following situation can be lodged as a protest. If it can, I know how I'd rule but I like to hear what the members think:

Halfway through the game, the home plate calls me over and asks me to watch a fan who is standing outside the fence but near the dugout. HP ump thinks that the fan is giving signals. Sure enough, he's flashing location (definitely) and pitch (possibly) to the catcher. After the inning, I concurred w/the HP ump, who quietly walked over to the coach and told him that if that guy wasn't a coach, it's time to move elsewhere.

OBR 9.01e (2) only allows an umpire to eject, "any spectator or other person not authorized to be on the playing field". Pony Tournament Rule #T-17 H states that, "Grievous individual misconduct, on the part of adult leaders or players, on or off the field, such as, but not limited to, fighting, drinking, publicly audible use of foul or abusive language, may result in the removal of an individual from further tournament play for the remainder of the tournament season." Unfortunately, these rules do not apply spectators. House tournament rules does allow an umpire to eject a fan and rules succession is: House Rules, then Pony Rules, then OBR.

So, my questions are:

1. can a spectator flash signals to a player w/out penalty?

2. if there is a penalty, what rule and penalty applies? I would like to have something more than OBR 9.01c, "Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules."

3. is this something that an umpire can call or must he wait for a team to protest?

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

justbaseball · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 02:20am

All I can say is that in our area they (PONY Baseball officials...i.e. tournament directors) warn the coaches that if a fan/parent communicates with the dugout or the players during the game that they will eject the manager of the team.

That usually solves that problem before it ever happens.

ozzy6900 · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 05:17am

Not being arrogant - just a question. Does PONY Baseball have a rule in their rule book prohibiting a fan from giving signs or signals?

Now if there is no rule;
1. What's the problem with a fan giving signs?
2. As an umpire, don't you have enough to worry about? Why are you adding fans to your long list of things that you have to deal with?
3. What is the difference between a coach giving signs or a fan giving signs?

Now if you can show us a PONY specific rule, then the above questions do not apply.

Here's a bit of help
OBR 8.01
..... Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.

Can you show me where it specifies where the signs come from? And what if the coach signs to the pitcher rather than the catcher - what is the penalty?

ren0901 · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 06:35am

...there is no rule (House, Pony, or otherwise) that specifically pertains to spectators giving signs to players. There is a House tournament rule that states, "Each team is limited to 4 adults (non-players) in the dugout. Other than being in the coaches boxes, coaches/managers must remain at their dugout fence, between the dugout openings". Pony Rule #16c - Managers and Coaches, states, "Players, managers and coaches shall remain in the dugouts, on the benches or in the prescribed areas throughout the game. Pony Tournament Rule #T-13b - Managers and Coaches, states, "The field manager, assisted by the coach, shall direct the team on the field of play and shall be responsible for the conduct of players both on and off the field"...

...ordinarily, I'd agree w/your point #2 about not looking for trouble because it'll end up finding you. There's just something that doesn't seem fair about this. And where would it stop: one could imagine having a spectator/coach for each player, positioning them on defense, swiping signals for them on offense, etc. To me, there's a distinction between coach and spectator: by rule, coaches can't coach outside the field of play. Should not the reverse apply to spectators?...

Dave Hensley · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 08:15am

Get real. Spectators "coach" all the time. "Bend your back and follow through, Timmy!" "Concentrate!" "Focus!" "Strike that mother effer out!"

There is no rule to prevent any of the above, including "flashing signals" by a spectator. The rule that stipulates pitchers should take their signs from the catcher while on the rubber is there to insure that pitchers follow a proscribed protocol for taking the rubber, and pausing (to get a sign, ostensibly) before beginning a pitching motion. As long as the pitcher is (1) not quick pitching and (2) not delaying the game by searching the dugout, the stands, or the sky for his sign and/or divine intervention, you have no problem. Why try to create one?

mcrowder · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 08:37am

I'm trying to figure out why A) an umpire or TD would WANT to get involved in such a situation, or B) why anyone on either side would care if Little Johnny is getting his pitches from Little Stevie's father.

LMan · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 08:46am

All sorts of trouble and evil come from that statement/sentiment, "...just doesn't seem *fair*".....

fair to whom?

..not your job to keep YOUR defintion of competitive balance outside of the rulebook. Stay in the rulebook and interps, leave the rest to the TD or whoever.

jicecone · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 08:49am

Quote:

Originally posted by ren0901
...there is no rule (House, Pony, or otherwise) that specifically pertains to spectators giving signs to players. There is a House tournament rule that states, "Each team is limited to 4 adults (non-players) in the dugout. Other than being in the coaches boxes, coaches/managers must remain at their dugout fence, between the dugout openings". Pony Rule #16c - Managers and Coaches, states, "Players, managers and coaches shall remain in the dugouts, on the benches or in the prescribed areas throughout the game. Pony Tournament Rule #T-13b - Managers and Coaches, states, "The field manager, assisted by the coach, shall direct the team on the field of play and shall be responsible for the conduct of players both on and off the field"...

...ordinarily, I'd agree w/your point #2 about not looking for trouble because it'll end up finding you. There's just something that doesn't seem fair about this. And where would it stop: one could imagine having a spectator/coach for each player, positioning them on defense, swiping signals for them on offense, etc. To me, there's a distinction between coach and spectator: by rule, coaches can't coach outside the field of play. Should not the reverse apply to spectators?...

You keep quoting rules about managers and coaches, and then you keep TRYING to MAKE up rules about spectators.

It's NOT There. Deal with it and move on because it's sounding like a personal problem now, YOURS.

jicecone · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 08:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball
All I can say is that in our area they (PONY Baseball officials...i.e. tournament directors) warn the coaches that if a fan/parent communicates with the dugout or the players during the game that they will eject the manager of the team.

That usually solves that problem before it ever happens.

Mother: "Good catch, Joey. Way to Go."

Umpire: "Coach, your out of here."

GET SERIOUS WILL YOU!

Tim C · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 09:10am

I thought umpires had enough to worry about with things on the field.

How amazingly OOO.

ozzy6900 · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 09:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by ren0901
...there is no rule (House, Pony, or otherwise) that specifically pertains to spectators giving signs to players. There is a House tournament rule that states, "Each team is limited to 4 adults (non-players) in the dugout. Other than being in the coaches boxes, coaches/managers must remain at their dugout fence, between the dugout openings". Pony Rule #16c - Managers and Coaches, states, "Players, managers and coaches shall remain in the dugouts, on the benches or in the prescribed areas throughout the game. Pony Tournament Rule #T-13b - Managers and Coaches, states, "The field manager, assisted by the coach, shall direct the team on the field of play and shall be responsible for the conduct of players both on and off the field"...

...ordinarily, I'd agree w/your point #2 about not looking for trouble because it'll end up finding you. There's just something that doesn't seem fair about this. And where would it stop: one could imagine having a spectator/coach for each player, positioning them on defense, swiping signals for them on offense, etc. To me, there's a distinction between coach and spectator: by rule, coaches can't coach outside the field of play. Should not the reverse apply to spectators?...

There, you've just proved that there is no rule that says a spectator cannot give signs to a player. They are parents - let them be parents and tell the TD or AD or whatever to go buy hot dogs for the kids!

ren0901 · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 09:41am

...I don't have any problems w/spectators cheering or booing players, umpires, etc. as that is part of the game. Whether it is as general as, "we need a strike out here" to something specific as, "play in, third...look out for the squeeze", these comments usually state the obvious. But something just seemed amiss when the catcher would look to a spectator instead of a coach to relay signals and call the game accordingly. Postings indicate that there's nothing wrong w/this, so if a protest arises, this will be my guide. Thanks again to all the posters...

TBBlue · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 11:43am

What everybody said. Who cares where the signs come from? If the manager says dad gives signs, that's his problem not the umpires.

If you are looking for a reason, probably on this team, dad is a former pitcher, or more likely catcher, who understands the philosophies of pitching, but actually works a real job instead of the fantasy job of coaching little Johnny to the Runt League World Series. He is probably not on team roster because he can't be at all practices or tourney games. Why waste a coaches slot on someone who isn't going to be there all the time, but can help when he is there.

woolnojg · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 12:52pm

This is the coaches problem. If his team won't listen to him then he has bigger problems. As an ump. it's not your problem.

Any player of mine that listened to others rather than me became an expert on the different types of wood used in constructing benches.

justbaseball · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 25, 2005, 07:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jicecone

Mother: "Good catch, Joey. Way to Go."

Umpire: "Coach, your out of here."

GET SERIOUS WILL YOU!

Are you that dense that you thought/think they/I were/was talking about this kind of communication? Come on now...you're just picking on something you know wasn't meant.

Was talking about the original problem posted by the thread starter...i.e. signals from the stands. Personally, I think they're wasting their time...but he asked a question and it IS how they enforce it in our area. He didn't ask my opinion of it which you now know.