obstruction, overthrow interp?

[DG]

Originally posted by fwump
Lets not over-complicate things. The only thing that would alter the outcome of this game is if the BR is called out before he reaches 1B. No way you are getting an out on this play since you have obstruction on BR before he reached 1b.

Game over.

Mike

Game is over one way or the other, it was bottom of ninth with 2 outs when play happened. The BR can be called out for missing 1B. I don't see how I could call obstruction on a BR to reach 1B with F1 standing on top of the bag, he should be able to touch it somewhere. I think I could see an obstruction call on his advance to 2B, since F1 standing on the bag makes it more difficult to make the turn. With ball in the outfield and the winning run scoring easily, no way should he miss touching 1B.

[fwump]

DG,

I think we both making assumptions but I see your point. HTBT but if I see BR miss first because F3 is standing on the bag I have obsruction without a play(type b). Therefore in this sitch, play continues and BR tries to return to 1B when a play is attempted. The question is; would you award 1B to BR after ball is thrown into DBT?

Mike

[DG]

Originally posted by fwump
DG,

I think we both making assumptions but I see your point. HTBT but if I see BR miss first because F3 is standing on the bag I have obsruction without a play(type b). Therefore in this sitch, play continues and BR tries to return to 1B when a play is attempted. The question is; would you award 1B to BR after ball is thrown into DBT?

Mike

IF (large IF), I called obstruction on F1 before BR reached 1B, then that would be a type b and he is awarded 1B. But, he has to touch 1B to complete the award and if he goes to the dugout instead we could have abandonement. From J/R again, "Once the ball is dead, an offensive player can advance, but only because of an award resulting from live ball action. Such runner cannot be put out by the defense, but can be declared out by the umpire for abandoning his effort to run the bases..." Of course the proper mechanic would be to call the obstruction, wait for play to be over and then say "you, 1B". If he goes to the dugout after that then there is no need for an appeal because I have abandonement before reaching 1B, runs don't count, game over.

This is apparently a real situation that actually happened, but if BR can not touch 1B somehow when he knows he has driven in the tieing and winning run, I just don't understand that. There is no reason for him to round 1B and head for 2B, all he has to do is run up to the bag and nick any part of it with any part of either foot and game over. I think he can do this with F1 standing on the bag so there is no way I call obstruction on F1 before reaching 1B. I think I could see obstruction on advance to 2B, but this would be type b and he is awarded nothing, but he has to touch 1B to erase the miss, and if he goes to the dugout then I have abandonment after acquiring 1B, runs scored game over, unless defense appeals for advantageous 4th out, and then game over runs don't score.

[Edited by DG on May 27th, 2005 at 01:59 PM]

[Kaliix]

You don't see any reason to call obstruction if F1 is standing on first base and the batter tries to avoid him and missed first base?!? Really?

Wow!

Originally posted by DG

Game is over one way or the other, it was bottom of ninth with 2 outs when play happened. The BR can be called out for missing 1B. I don't see how I could call obstruction on a BR to reach 1B with F1 standing on top of the bag, he should be able to touch it somewhere. I think I could see an obstruction call on his advance to 2B, since F1 standing on the bag makes it more difficult to make the turn. With ball in the outfield and the winning run scoring easily, no way should he miss touching 1B.

[Rich Ives]

Thd interp as I understand says he has to try to touch and only if the obstruction cleary prevents it do you deny an appeal. 2005 BRD Item 335

[fwump]

DG,

I get your logic, however this is result: Offensive coach who just had win taken away: "Blue why did you call my runner out!" UMP:"Well he never made the touch at first." Coach:"The first baseman was standing right on the base, isn't that obstruction?" UMP: "Naa he could or should have touched it somewhere, evan a little bit of the corner."

Prepare to eject. Now I will buy your argument that he abandoned. However if the BU calls the obstruction loud and clear and then kills the play after overthrow then the runner probably stays on 1B.

If we don't call obstruction on the play as described what is the result? Coach to his next hitter: "OK Johnny if he does'nt get out of your way, knock him down!" I thinks we've all heard that one.

Mike

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by fwump
DG,

I get your logic, however this is result: Offensive coach who just had win taken away: "Blue why did you call my runner out!" UMP:"Well he never made the touch at first." Coach:"The first baseman was standing right on the base, isn't that obstruction?" UMP: "Naa he could or should have touched it somewhere, evan a little bit of the corner."

Prepare to eject. Now I will buy your argument that he abandoned. However if the BU calls the obstruction loud and clear and then kills the play after overthrow then the runner probably stays on 1B.

If we don't call obstruction on the play as described what is the result? Coach to his next hitter: "OK Johnny if he does'nt get out of your way, knock him down!" I thinks we've all heard that one.

Mike

Even if obstructed, he still has to attempt to touch during live action.

You only "ignore" the lack of touch if the obstruction clearly prevented the touch. Even if obstructed, he still has to touch on the award because there was no hinderance once the ball became dead.

[David B]

Originally posted by fwump
DG,

I get your logic, however this is result: Offensive coach who just had win taken away: "Blue why did you call my runner out!" UMP:"Well he never made the touch at first." Coach:"The first baseman was standing right on the base, isn't that obstruction?" UMP: "Naa he could or should have touched it somewhere, evan a little bit of the corner."

Prepare to eject. Now I will buy your argument that he abandoned. However if the BU calls the obstruction loud and clear and then kills the play after overthrow then the runner probably stays on 1B.

If we don't call obstruction on the play as described what is the result? Coach to his next hitter: "OK Johnny if he does'nt get out of your way, knock him down!" I thinks we've all heard that one.

Mike

Winning runs scored, the game is over and we're out of here.

Obviously this must have been "small ball" because no 1st baseman is going to be standing on the bag in real baseball.

But if the coach asked, "coach he was obstructed, he was going to get at least second, the overthrow was going to send him to third, ballgame!!

there's nothing else to discuss

Thanks
David

[Rich Ives]

"You don't see any reason to call obstruction if F1 is standing on first base and the batter tries to avoid him and missed first base?!? Really?"

Yes, you can call it. But as the ball is now dead and an award in progress, there is now no hinderance and he has to touch.

[David B]

Originally posted by Rich Ives

Even if obstructed, he still has to attempt to touch during live action.

You only "ignore" the lack of touch if the obstruction clearly prevented the touch. Even if obstructed, he still has to touch on the award because there was no hinderance once the ball became dead.

Okay, the original post said what would you do.

Hey you, (BR) come here and touch first, now you're going to get second because of obstruction and then third on the overthrow.

Now ballgame.

I'm not going to allow the defense to gain any advantage when they instigated the mess to start with.

thanks
David

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by David B


Obviously this must have been "small ball" because no 1st baseman is going to be standing on the bag in real baseball.

David [/B]

actually it was AAA Legion.

lesson I learned...don't assume TWP only happen to TW Umps. In amatuer baseball, ANYTHING can happen.

[DG]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
"You don't see any reason to call obstruction if F1 is standing on first base and the batter tries to avoid him and missed first base?!? Really?"

Yes, you can call it. But as the ball is now dead and an award in progress, there is now no hinderance and he has to touch.

I see no reason to call obstruction on BR before he reaches 1B because F1 is standing on it. With the ball in the outfield he could run up to it, stop and touch it with his toe. Then I could call obstruction on his advance to 2B, but of course this would be type b. He can touch it somewhere. He is not obstructed from touching 1B. I said this already. Having passed the base he has acquired it, and he has to touch it after dead ball, or be out on appeal.

[Rich Ives]

"Hey you, (BR) come here and touch first, now you're going to get second because of obstruction and then third on the overthrow."


Telling him he's awarded 2nd and third - OK

Telling him he has to touch first - a BIG no-no.

[David B]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
"Hey you, (BR) come here and touch first, now you're going to get second because of obstruction and then third on the overthrow."


Telling him he's awarded 2nd and third - OK

Telling him he has to touch first - a BIG no-no.

Not in my games. As I said above, the reason he missed the base was because he was blocked by F3.

I'm not going to allow them to appeal then because of that.

As I said, game is over, we're going home.

thanks
David

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by mrm21711

I always thought an obstructed runner was required to touch all bases no matter the obstruction?

Then consider this play: R1 and R2, batter hits long fly ball to the gap, R2 and R1 are on their horses to score. Catcher obstructs R2 in a big collision just short of the plate, then R1 runs through the train wreck and scores.

Are you seriously going to uphold an appeal on R2's "miss" of the plate, and/or are you going to call R1 out for "passing" R2?

I hope not.