obstruction, overthrow interp?

[jumpmaster]

OBR: Bottom of the ninth...home team at bat...down by one run...two outs...R2, R3. Bloop base hit to shallow left field. Ball drops and R2, R3 easily score. While rounding first the BR misses first base because F1 is standing in the middle of it. After a long round and seeing that F6 now has the ball the BR tries to get back to first and the subsequent throw ends up in the dugout. Having seen the ball enter the dugout and hearing the umpire shout 'dead ball you third base'...the BR proceeds to head to the dugout as he thinks the game is over. The visiting manager comes out to argue the call and says that they should be allowed to appeal that the runner missed first. Tell me step by step what you are going to say (rule book terminology) and do.

[Rich Ives]

My 2 cents


Was the obstruction called or is it just your opinion? I don't think it matters because, now that the ball is dead, he has to tag the base before he goes to third anyhow.

Even if you call him out for abandonment they can still appeal the miss.

Now, if any one of the infielders or the pitcher has not crossed the foul line, they can appeal.


"OK Coach - get your pitcher on the mound and we'll put the ball in play."

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
My 2 cents


Was the obstruction called or is it just your opinion? I don't think it matters because, now that the ball is dead, he has to tag the base before he goes to third anyhow.

Even if you call him out for abandonment they can still appeal the miss.

Now, if any one of the infielders or the pitcher has not crossed the foul line, they can appeal.


"OK Coach - get your pitcher on the mound and we'll put the ball in play."

Total agreement that the runner here needs to touch 1B since he has the opportunity to correct his error---even if the miss was intially caused by an obstruction. His unobstructed return attempt to 1B warrants his need to touch the base to eliminate appeal of the miss. The throw to 1B by F6 should not be considered an obvious appeal of a missed base since retiring BR after touching 1B could also be considered as a potential timing play to retire BR before R2 touches the plate.

The only other comment, Rich, is that I'd not in anyway consider an abandonment call under the game situation described. The scoring of the two lead runners with 2 out eliminates the need for BR to carryout acceptance of his reward.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[DG]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
OBR: Bottom of the ninth...home team at bat...down by one run...two outs...R2, R3. Bloop base hit to shallow left field. Ball drops and R2, R3 easily score. While rounding first the BR misses first base because F1 is standing in the middle of it. After a long round and seeing that F6 now has the ball the BR tries to get back to first and the subsequent throw ends up in the dugout. Having seen the ball enter the dugout and hearing the umpire shout 'dead ball you third base'...the BR proceeds to head to the dugout as he thinks the game is over. The visiting manager comes out to argue the call and says that they should be allowed to appeal that the runner missed first. Tell me step by step what you are going to say (rule book terminology) and do.

"If a runner misses a base because of obstruction, an appeal of his miss of such base cannot be upheld". R2 easily scored so there is no reason for B1 to advance, thus no reason for him to miss 1B, even if F3 is standing on it since all he has to do is touch it. So I don't think we have an obstruction call, but if we do the BU will have already signaled and thus no appeal is allowed. Assuming no obstruction was signaled, B1 passed 1B so he "acquired" it and can only be out on appeal since the ball is now dead, he can't retouch, and in fact he went to the dugout, but he can still be out on appeal. The ball is dead so I am going to allow the defense to put the ball in play to appeal, assuming infielders have not left the field.

[Macaroo]

R3 and R2 scored. Game over.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by DG
"If a runner misses a base because of obstruction, an appeal of his miss of such base cannot be upheld".

You put this in quotes: where's it from?

As a blanket statement, I cannot believe it is correct.

vis: BR is obstructed from touching 1st as in the original sitch, is now standing fat & happy on 2d, making no effort to return. D appeals the miss, I've got an out. Does your mileage vary?

[Macaroo]

My Jaska/Roder reference states that "if a runner misses a base because of obstruction, an appeal of his miss of such base cannot be upheld."

Makes sense to me.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by Macaroo
My Jaska/Roder reference states that "if a runner misses a base because of obstruction, an appeal of his miss of such base cannot be upheld."

Makes sense to me.

OK, that's where I went looking for it: how about a section or page citation?

[Macaroo]

I have an old edition, but it is in the Interference and Obstruction Section, chapter on Obstruction.

[mrm21711]

Originally posted by Macaroo
My Jaska/Roder reference states that "if a runner misses a base because of obstruction, an appeal of his miss of such base cannot be upheld."

Makes sense to me.

I always thought an obstructed runner was required to touch all bases no matter the obstruction?

[DG]

Originally posted by cbfoulds

You put this in quotes: where's it from?

As a blanket statement, I cannot believe it is correct.

vis: BR is obstructed from touching 1st as in the original sitch, is now standing fat & happy on 2d, making no effort to return. D appeals the miss, I've got an out. Does your mileage vary?

J/R, page 121, 2004 Edition.

[Dave Reed]

Originally posted by cbfoulds

You put this in quotes: where's it from?

As a blanket statement, I cannot believe it is correct.

vis: BR is obstructed from touching 1st as in the original sitch, is now standing fat & happy on 2d, making no effort to return. D appeals the miss, I've got an out. Does your mileage vary?

DG has provided the page number, but in case you have a different edition, it appears in Chapter 15 --Obstruction about 2.5 pages in, just under the section "Ruling on Obstruction." Although this blanket statement appears to be at variance with normal practice in awarding bases, I believe it is necessary. Consider this situation: R1 and B/R hits a fly ball which just goes over F8's head. B/R is prevented from touching first because F3 is standing on the bag, but chooses to continue to second, and is safe. The umpire calls obstruction, and decides to protect the B/R to second. Now there is no award-- the runner has attained the base he was protected to. If by rule the runner were subject to appeal for missing first base, then enterprising defenses would routinely obstruct the runner from touching first base, knowing that the runner's only safety is to stop at first. Sure, B/R will be awarded second, but the defense improves its chances of preventing R1 from scoring, or if R1 can score, of B/R advancing to third during the play at the plate.

[Rich Ives]

The J/R ruling covers situations where the runner did not have an opporunity to touch the base during live action due to the obstruction.

However, as the ball is now dead, the runner now does have the opportunity and must do so.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

OBR: Bottom of the ninth...home team at bat...down by one run...two outs...R2, R3. Bloop base hit to shallow left field. Ball drops and R2, R3 easily score. While rounding first the BR misses first base because F1 is standing in the middle of it. After a long round and seeing that F6 now has the ball the BR tries to get back to first and the subsequent throw ends up in the dugout. Having seen the ball enter the dugout and hearing the umpire shout 'dead ball you third base'...the BR proceeds to head to the dugout as he thinks the game is over. The visiting manager comes out to argue the call and says that they should be allowed to appeal that the runner missed first. Tell me step by step what you are going to say (rule book terminology) and do.

OBR 7.06

When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call or signal "Obstruction." (a) If a play is being made on the obstructed runner, or if the batter runner is obstructed before he touches first base, the ball is dead and all runners shall advance, without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire's judgment, if there had been no obstruction.

B1 was Obstructed before he touched first base, game over.

Now reality.

F1 is standing in the middle of it.

Simply push F1 out of the way to touch the base. In addition you said the middle of it. All the runner has to do is touch ANY part of the base.

In any event - Game Over. If manager comes out while I am on my way to the car. It's skip R1 was obstructed as your fielder was blocking the entire base. End of Discussion Game Over.

Pete Booth

[fwump]

Lets not over-complicate things. The only thing that would alter the outcome of this game is if the BR is called out before he reaches 1B. No way you are getting an out on this play since you have obstruction on BR before he reached 1b.

Game over.

Mike