Hidden ball trick

[GarthB]

Originally posted by mick

Tee,
The "live ball" requirement for the balk is missing in LL rules.
Trying to sell anything about requiring a live ball for a balk to most anyone, from your partner to the local Board of Directors, would be pretty darn tough.
There are not enough knowlegable umpires, managers, coaches working the kids' league to force Little League baseball to bring their manuals, casebooks and rule books up to snuff.

There's no written backup anywhere, ...I think.
mick

I know very little about LL so I sent this post to some umpires I know who work LL to fairly high levels as well as upper level real baseball. Here's one response I got:

"This is idiocy. The rule is the same. "

Interesting.

[mick]

Originally posted by Rackster
Sorry guys,getting confused here....PU thought pitcher had ball and on pitching plate (shame on PU for being fooled?Obviously this is what causes the problem.)and called "Play".Isn't it now a live ball? Runner takes lead and is tagged out.Offensive team claims it is an illegal play,but PU lets call stand.That was his ruling,i'm saying if ball is made live,even mistakenly,its a balk.I understand what everyone is saying about "can't have a balk on a dead ball",but how should this situation be ruled.Does the PU just say "My mistake,runner is not out,pitcher take the ball and lets play!"?Is there a rule for a dead ball mistakenly being made live?

Rackster,
It is confusing ... in Little League.
1. PU calling "Play!" Makes the ball live by 3.12 and 5.02.
2. 5.11 says PU was not supposed to call "Play!" without ball in pitcher's hand.
3. 8.05 does not require a live ball.

No rule allows the fact that the pitcher did not have to ball cancel the fact that the PU called "Play!"

If I got deceived by the players in that situation, I would do what TEE and DG told me to do, "Get the ball to the pitcher and let's play."

He did it wrong and there was no one to tell him it was wrong.
mick

[mick]

Originally posted by GarthB

I know very little about LL so I sent this post to some umpires I know who work LL to fairly high levels as well as upper level real baseball. Here's one response I got:

"This is idiocy. The rule is the same. "

Interesting.

Garth,
Maybe the other guys you asked are gonna find the rule, before they say, "Just is!"
mick

[Tim C]

Rich nailed it . . .

It doesn't matter even with the pure weak guys that work LL . . .

It still cannot be done.

I have no idea why LL umpires are so poor!

I don't get it.

I'll get outta here, Little League has NO value,

[Edited by Tim C on May 14th, 2005 at 11:58 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by Tim C
Rich nailed it . . .

It doesn't matter even with the pure weak guys that work LL . . .

It still cannot be done.

I have no idea why LL umpires are so poor!

I don't get it.

I'll get outta here, Little League has NO value,

[Edited by Tim C on May 14th, 2005 at 11:58 PM]

I doubt that you mean that.
Little League umpires are mass produced with minimal training by Little League umpires with possibly some little league training.
The new umpires often learn on-the-job with little supervision. After a 1 or 2 hour clinic they show up behind the plate and right into the frying pan. These umpires are guided by coaches, players and fans perhaps more than they are supervised by their local umpire Trainers.

Regardless of the quality of ball, LL feeds the upper levels of baseball with players and umpires, maybe a college coach, ... and fans.
It does that quite well.

LL talks about citizenship, teamwork, sportsmanship and fair play, all good values for children.

The rule books are imperfect and seem to be designed to get newbee type parents, players and umpires onto the field with minimum confusion.

They keep it simple. They play ball.
mick

[DG]

Originally posted by Tim C
Rich nailed it . . .

It doesn't matter even with the pure weak guys that work LL . . .

It still cannot be done.

I have no idea why LL umpires are so poor!

I don't get it.

I'll get outta here, Little League has NO value,

[Edited by Tim C on May 14th, 2005 at 11:58 PM]

This is NOT a LL question. It is more fundamental than LL. It is baseball, all levels, all rules.

[Russ]

What else are we supposed to allow during a dead ball?

2. 5.11 says PU was not supposed to call "Play!" without ball in pitcher's hand.
3. 8.05 does not require a live ball.

502 also says While the ball is dead no actions (to long of a list to type) can be made except those that result from actions which occurred while the ball was alive.

[Dave Hensley]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

It is confusing ... in Little League.
1. PU calling "Play!" Makes the ball live by 3.12 and 5.02.
2. 5.11 says PU was not supposed to call "Play!" without ball in pitcher's hand.
3. 8.05 does not require a live ball.

No rule allows the fact that the pitcher did not have to ball cancel the fact that the PU called "Play!"

The Little League version of rules 3.12, 5.02, and 5.11 are IDENTICAL to the OBR version. There is no textual or interpretational difference in Little League, with respect to these rules.

As for "8.05 does not require a live ball," hardly any of the playing rules in the entire rule book EXPLICITLY say they are only applicable during a live ball. But almost all of the playing rules ARE only applicable when the ball is live. 8.05 is among those, in both OBR and Little League.

At age 13 and above, the LL balk rule is identical to OBR’s.

At 12 and below, balks become illegal pitches. In addition to a difference in penalty assessed (ball added to count instead of runners awarded a base) there are a few other quirky differences; however, whether it is applicable when the ball is not live is NOT one of those differences. The Little League IP should only be called when the infraction occurs while the ball is live.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by mick

Garth,
Maybe the other guys you asked are gonna find the rule, before they say, "Just is!"
mick

Mick:

Dave Hensley's post seemed to do just that, and politely.

[mick]

Thank you all for participating in this thread.

I certainly agree that an umpire calling, "Play!", does not make the ball live and that a ball must be live to balk.

But, it remains that given the rules provided by Little League, young umpires are not well-armed due to the editors of Little League publishings and training.

Based upon the play the sitch umpire goofed.
Base upon the information available to participants in Little League, a balk would be understood by following the rules provided.

Thanks.
mick

[Tim C]

Mick, do you agree that it is impossible to have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball under all rules codes?

[mick]

Originally posted by Tim C
Mick, do you agree that it is impossible to have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball under all rules codes?

Yes, TEE.
Thanks.
mick

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by mick
But, it remains that given the rules provided by Little League, young umpires are not well-armed due to the editors of Little League publishings and training.

I researched the OBR and LL versions of each rule you cited, and they are identical, verbatim.

There are some LL rules for which your point is valid; the subject of this thread is, however, not one of them.

[mick]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

I researched the OBR and LL versions of each rule you cited, and they are identical, verbatim.

There are some LL rules for which your point is valid; the subject of this thread is, however, not one of them.

One final time on this thread.

13-, 16- or 20-yr.-old umpires do not have access to your information or resources. Their emphasis is on the paycheck and not the intricacies of Baseball's unwritten words. "Just is" is the rule provided in the discussion. and I can live with that as I have for many years. Why would you expect someone's kid as a brand new umpire know that stuff when it is not in the book, or to be as smart as you are by merely reading the rule book?

And, of course LL Baseball is based on OBR so they obviously should be the same or similar. The original play may not be properly determined base on the words of merely the Little League Baseball rule book. You must know more than the words in the book; you must know the "Just is", the common practice, the popular opinion.

It ain't in the book. Saying it's the same will not put it in the book.



mick

[Dave Reed]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I researched the OBR and LL versions of each rule you cited, and they are identical, verbatim.

Dave, the OBR and LL version are very similar, and the meaning of the rules is identical, but the two versions are not verbatim. The LL version has been altered to remove gender-specific references. For example, 5.11 (OBR) is:
"... play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession..."
The 2005 LL version is:
"...play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes a position on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in said pitcher's possesion..."

These differences are trivial for the discussion in this thread. But I wonder if you have a LL rulebook in which 5.11 is truly identical to the OBR? If so, what is its title?