Hidden ball trick

Rackster · #1 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 08:31pm

In a Junior League division of little league baseball a player was hit by a pitch,catcher threw the ball to first baseman for the hidden ball trick.Plate umpire thought the pitcher was on the pitching plate with the ball and announced "play".Runner on first took a lead and was tagged out.Offensive team argued play was legal but PU let play stand. Shouldn't this have been a balk call? I see it as picher was on pitching plate without ball or pitcher was straddling pitching plate in order to decieve,with either situation a balk call and runner awarded second base.Am I right?

DG · #2 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 08:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rackster
In a Junior League division of little league baseball a player was hit by a pitch,catcher threw the ball to first baseman for the hidden ball trick.Plate umpire thought the pitcher was on the pitching plate with the ball and announced "play".Runner on first took a lead and was tagged out.Offensive team argued play was legal but PU let play stand. Shouldn't this have been a balk call? I see it as picher was on pitching plate without ball or pitcher was straddling pitching plate in order to decieve,with either situation a balk call and runner awarded second base.Am I right?

You can not put the ball in play after a dead ball without the pitcher having the ball, therefore you can not have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball. You can not balk when the ball is dead. If umpire rules otherwise in any of above this is correctable.

Why would offensive team argue that their runner was called out illegally?

mick · #3 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 08:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rackster
In a Junior League division of little league baseball a player was hit by a pitch,catcher threw the ball to first baseman for the hidden ball trick.Plate umpire thought the pitcher was on the pitching plate with the ball and announced "play".Runner on first took a lead and was tagged out.Offensive team argued play was legal but PU let play stand. Shouldn't this have been a balk call? I see it as picher was on pitching plate without ball or pitcher was straddling pitching plate in order to decieve,with either situation a balk call and runner awarded second base.Am I right?

Rackster,
Yes.
8.05 Penalty (1) - " Straddling the pitcher's plate without the ball is to be interpreted as an intent to deceive and ruled a balk."

mick

Greg Fox · #4 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 08:55pm

In "official" Little League (9-12) you can't lead off so you are using some other rules. In all the codes I know of the pitcher must be on the rubber with the batter and catcher in position in order to make the ball live. If the umpire is fooled and incorrectly puts the ball in play, call time and cancel the play.

DG · #5 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 09:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Rackster
In a Junior League division of little league baseball a player was hit by a pitch,catcher threw the ball to first baseman for the hidden ball trick.Plate umpire thought the pitcher was on the pitching plate with the ball and announced "play".Runner on first took a lead and was tagged out.Offensive team argued play was legal but PU let play stand. Shouldn't this have been a balk call? I see it as picher was on pitching plate without ball or pitcher was straddling pitching plate in order to decieve,with either situation a balk call and runner awarded second base.Am I right?

Rackster,
Yes.
8.05 Penalty (1) - " Straddling the pitcher's plate without the ball is to be interpreted as an intent to deceive and ruled a balk."

mick

You can not balk a dead ball. You can not put it in play after a dead ball without the pitcher having the ball. You can not have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball.

This was discussed here earlier this year and I learned my lesson.

[Edited by DG on May 14th, 2005 at 10:13 PM]

Tim C · #6 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 09:20pm

I cannot make my point more firmly:

You cannot have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball.

DG, is correct.

There is simply no possible way, period.

DG · #7 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 09:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C
I cannot make my point more firmly:

You cannot have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball.

DG, is correct.

There is simply no possible way, period.

I credit Tee for my lesson learned, during earlier posts on this subject. I got my mind right, and when the subject came up during an association meeting I was a single voice on this subject, eventually vindicated by our rules interpreter. I hear there is an article in Referee about this although I have not seen it

mick · #8 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 09:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DG

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Rackster
In a Junior League division of little league baseball a player was hit by a pitch,catcher threw the ball to first baseman for the hidden ball trick.Plate umpire thought the pitcher was on the pitching plate with the ball and announced "play".Runner on first took a lead and was tagged out.Offensive team argued play was legal but PU let play stand. Shouldn't this have been a balk call? I see it as picher was on pitching plate without ball or pitcher was straddling pitching plate in order to decieve,with either situation a balk call and runner awarded second base.Am I right?

Rackster,
Yes.
8.05 Penalty (1) - " Straddling the pitcher's plate without the ball is to be interpreted as an intent to deceive and ruled a balk."

mick

You can not balk a dead ball. You can not put it in play after a dead ball without the pitcher having the ball. You can not have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball.

This was discussed here earlier this year and I learned my lesson.

[Edited by DG on May 14th, 2005 at 10:13 PM]

DG,
What do you mean "I can't" do those things?
3.12 makes the ball live. 5.02 makes the ball live.
Does 8.05 requires a live ball? Does 5.11 cancel 3.12, 5.02, 8.05? ...By what rule?

I can do those things (won't but can.).
Is there a Little League rule or even a weak implication to what you say I "can't do"?

Thanks.
mick

Tim C · #9 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 09:43pm

You lost me on this one.

mick · #10 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 10:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C
You lost me on this one.

Tee,
The "live ball" requirement for the balk is missing in LL rules.
Trying to sell anything about requiring a live ball for a balk to most anyone, from your partner to the local Board of Directors, would be pretty darn tough.
There are not enough knowlegable umpires, managers, coaches working the kids' league to force Little League baseball to bring their manuals, casebooks and rule books up to snuff.

If a uniformed umpire walked onto the field, he could sell a dead ball balk.
If a lesser-dressed umpire walked onto the field, he could not sell the live ball balk.

There's no written backup anywhere, ...I think.
mick

Tim C · #11 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 10:11pm

I am sorry . . .

Nothin done on small diamond ball would ever amaze me.

Rackster · #12 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 10:23pm

Sorry guys,getting confused here....PU thought pitcher had ball and on pitching plate (shame on PU for being fooled?Obviously this is what causes the problem.)and called "Play".Isn't it now a live ball? Runner takes lead and is tagged out.Offensive team claims it is an illegal play,but PU lets call stand.That was his ruling,i'm saying if ball is made live,even mistakenly,its a balk.I understand what everyone is saying about "can't have a balk on a dead ball",but how should this situation be ruled.Does the PU just say "My mistake,runner is not out,pitcher take the ball and lets play!"?Is there a rule for a dead ball mistakenly being made live? Also this is a Junior League game governed by LL rules.Junior League has added rules above the normal LL rules...i.e. 7 innings,leading,running on missed 3rd strikes,balks..etc.The junior league is for players aged 13 & 14.

[Edited by Rackster on May 14th, 2005 at 11:30 PM]

mick · #13 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 10:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C
I am sorry . . .

Nothin done on small diamond ball would ever amaze me.

TEE,

Well, I think it's quite understandable, working with all those volunteer types.
Few coaches last more than 6 years, Umpires move up to different levels, Board members "outgrow" the need to serve.

Keep the rules simple and easy-to-(maybe)-read pretty much suits the purposes for putting a whole bunch of kids and parents on the field.

mick

Rich · #14 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rackster
Sorry guys,getting confused here....PU thought pitcher had ball and on pitching plate (shame on PU for being fooled?Obviously this is what causes the problem.)and called "Play".Isn't it now a live ball? Runner takes lead and is tagged out.Offensive team claims it is an illegal play,but PU lets call stand.That was his ruling,i'm saying if ball is made live,even mistakenly,its a balk.I understand what everyone is saying about "can't have a balk on a dead ball",but how should this situation be ruled.Does the PU just say "My mistake,runner is not out,pitcher take the ball and lets play!"?Is there a rule for a dead ball mistakenly being made live? Also this is a Junior League game governed by LL rules.Junior League has added rules above the normal LL rules...i.e. 7 innings,leading,running on missed 3rd strikes,balks..etc.The junior league is for players aged 13 & 14.

[Edited by Rackster on May 14th, 2005 at 11:30 PM]

Yes, the umpire declaring the ball live presupposes that the pitcher is in possession of the ball, which is required by rule.

If the umpire isn't paying attention and doesn't notice that the pitcher doesn't have the ball, he should say "My bad" and should reset everyone. Because the ball doesn't become live until the pitcher WITH THE BALL is on the pitcher's plate.

The rule is the same in the pros, in college, in HS, and yes, in LL.

Rich · #15 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 10:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rackster
Sorry guys,getting confused here....PU thought pitcher had ball and on pitching plate (shame on PU for being fooled?Obviously this is what causes the problem.)and called "Play".Isn't it now a live ball? Runner takes lead and is tagged out.Offensive team claims it is an illegal play,but PU lets call stand.That was his ruling,i'm saying if ball is made live,even mistakenly,its a balk.I understand what everyone is saying about "can't have a balk on a dead ball",but how should this situation be ruled.Does the PU just say "My mistake,runner is not out,pitcher take the ball and lets play!"?Is there a rule for a dead ball mistakenly being made live? Also this is a Junior League game governed by LL rules.Junior League has added rules above the normal LL rules...i.e. 7 innings,leading,running on missed 3rd strikes,balks..etc.The junior league is for players aged 13 & 14.

[Edited by Rackster on May 14th, 2005 at 11:30 PM]

No, it's not a live ball. The rule requires the umpire make the ball live, but it can't become live unless the pitcher is holding it.