Time called?

Robert G · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 21, 2001, 10:11pm

I do LL games age 11& 12. A parent asked me before my game a situation that happened the night before.R1 on 1st, B1 steps out as catcher cleans off the dish. PU raises his left hand, does not say time as F1 fires to 1st & R1 is picked off. Coach says he should not be out because PU raised his hand. Pu lets out stand & says he did not call time. What's your call?
Also... runner is advancind to 3rd on a hit, as he slides he does not touch the base & the throw is late. Do I call him safe or do I remain silent?
Thanks Rober G

Carl Childress · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 21, 2001, 10:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Robert G
I do LL games age 11& 12. A parent asked me before my game a situation that happened the night before.R1 on 1st, B1 steps out as catcher cleans off the dish. PU raises his left hand, does not say time as F1 fires to 1st & R1 is picked off. Coach says he should not be out because PU raised his hand. Pu lets out stand & says he did not call time. What's your call?
Also... runner is advancind to 3rd on a hit, as he slides he does not touch the base & the throw is late. Do I call him safe or do I remain silent?
Thanks Rober G

Question 1: In Make the Right Call, the LL case book, this play appears:

Of course, I am told that the very play happened in the LL World Series THIS YEAR, and the umpire crew allowed the out to stand.

Question 2: If the ball and the runner are both at the base, make no signal until everything is over: The runner has stopped sliding, the fielder has stopped trying to tag the runner, etc. The runner, even if he touches the base, is not yet safe: He might overslide and be tagged for an out.

In one of my early years I called "Out!" (because the throw barely beat the stealing runner), "Safe!!" (because the ball popped out of F4's glove), "Out!!!" (because the runner overslid the base and was tagged). The offensive coach (who lose two out of the three calls I made) came rushing out. "Carl," he said, "you're terrific! You got all three calls right. But, uh, is that the way you're supposed to do it?"

bluezebra · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 21, 2001, 10:52pm

Carl:

Read Robert G again. The PU didn't clean the plate, the catcher did. "B1 steps out as catcher cleans off the dish. PU raises his left hand, does not say time ". PU would have to be a contortionist to turn his back to the pitcher, clean the plate while holding his left hand up to keep pitcher from pitching.

Bob

Thane Yennie · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 21, 2001, 11:05pm

I think the PU raising his left hand is implying that 'time' is indeed called. Why else was he raising his hand, to air out his armpit? He obviously did not want the pitcher to pitch, why allow him a pick off move?

Carl Childress · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 21, 2001, 11:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bluezebra
Carl:

Read Robert G again. The PU didn't clean the plate, the catcher did. "B1 steps out as catcher cleans off the dish. PU raises his left hand, does not say time ". PU would have to be a contortionist to turn his back to the pitcher, clean the plate while holding his left hand up to keep pitcher from pitching.Bob

Bob: Ah, ha. Well, at least we got the other situation handled according to standard mechanics; and everyone now knows time is out in LL (except at the World Series).

Concerning the real question: I don't know of anything in the LL book per se, but there is an official interpretation by the PBUC dating back to the mid 1980s: Any hand up, palm toward the pitcher, has the same effect as "time out." (Deary; Fitzpatrick affirmed, 11/15/00)

BTW: That interpretation is black letter law in FED (5-1-1h) and NCAA (6-5h).

blarson · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 21, 2001, 11:40pm

First of all...Papa C, you have a copy of LL Right Call! I'm shocked. It can't be far from BRD. ;-)

Robert, I hope you had a chance to catch the Mets game tonight or at least a highlight. Gleaming example of how to call that play at third you had.

R1, R3, infield in. Grounder to F4, he fires home. R3 slides headfirst to the side, F2 misses tag, R3 misses plate with hand. U1 signals....nothing. Not until runner attempts to dive back into home and gets tag. The U1 pulls the trigger.

On a pet peeve note. When a LL catcher tries to clean off that plate, I usually "Hey, thats my job, your making me look bad." Usually is gets a chuckle and he gets the point.

Ump20 · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 21, 2001, 11:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Robert G
I do LL games age 11& 12. A parent asked me before my game a situation that happened the night before.R1 on 1st, B1 steps out as catcher cleans off the dish. PU raises his left hand, does not say time as F1 fires to 1st & R1 is picked off. Coach says he should not be out because PU raised his hand. Pu lets out stand & says he did not call time. What's your call?
Also... runner is advancind to 3rd on a hit, as he slides he does not touch the base & the throw is late. Do I call him safe or do I remain silent?
Thanks Rober G

The umpire raising his hand to indicate "Do not pitch" is the same as calling "Time". But the first question is whether or not this "steal" would be legal in Little League baseball. 7.13 of the Little League playing rules prohibits the base runner from leaving the base "When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcher's plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcher's box ready to receive delivery of the ball..." I would assume the catcher was initially "ready" and then decided the plate was not half as clean as his bedroom.

The second comment concerns cleaning the plate. I happen to be a guy who wears out his plate brush. I think a clean plate looks good and gives the pitcher a target. I also think it is far more efficient then the soul of the shoe. However, whenever possible this should be attempted when the ball is dead such as after a foul ball. I also make it a point in those situations with a runner on third base to call "Time" if it isn't already in effect. Time is not "assumed" when the umpire or catcher cleans the plate.

[Edited by Ump20 on Mar 21st, 2001 at 11:12 PM]

bluezebra · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 22, 2001, 12:02am

When PU turns his back to the pitcher to clean the plate, time is out! Unless you want to take a pitch to your "good side". Or have a riot on your hands if a play happens and yo're not watching.

bob

PeteBooth · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 22, 2001, 06:01pm

Originally posted by Robert G

I do LL games age 11& 12. A parent asked me before my game a situation that happened the night before. R1 on 1st, B1 steps out as catcher cleans off the dish. PU raises his left hand, does not say time as F1 fires to 1st & R1 is picked off. Coach says he should not be out because PU raised his hand. Pu lets out stand & says he did not call time. What's your call?

We are ready to put the ball live when F1 is ready to pitch, F2 is ready to receive it and the batter is in the box. When one puts his / her hand-up you are instructing F1 not to pitch which in effect means You are stopping play

When you put your hands-up, play is stopped whether you actually called time or not.

As a side note: you said LL age 11/12 so I do not know why R1 would be off the base anyway since you cannot take a lead in that division, but I'll stick with your scenario.

Also... runner is advancind to 3rd on a hit, as he slides he does not touch the base & the throw is late. Do I call him safe or do I remain silent?

You remain silent until the fielder makes the play or the runner makes a play. If the runner and or fielder hears nothing they should react. You can't call safe because the runner did not touch the base and you would give the offense an advantage

You can't call out because the defense would gain a big advantage especially in your play in which the runner beat the throw.

Now if B1 beats the throw to first, but doesn't touch first the call is safe untill F3 or F1 tags out runner prior to his returning.

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 22, 2001, 07:21pm

When the arm is up, the ball is dead. It is that simple, nothing can happen after that. Look in the mechanics signals in the back of the book.

JJ · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 22, 2001, 11:53pm

When I see a catcher reach out to brush off the plate I whisper to him, "If I can't see it, it's bigger." They get the message (that it's my job to tend to the plate)!

BJ Moose · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 24, 2001, 01:51pm

Ah.. the "talk to the hand" thread is back. It appears every year on every ump board.

Save yourself! Convince yourself and all your leagues umpires that THE HAND means DEAD BALL! The ball is either LIVE or DEAD, no in between. "Some" LL umpires want to argue that "THE HAND" is a no pitch signal, thus you have this peculiar situation of the ball DEAD here.. but LIVE over there... weird.. and wrong.

Especially in LL.. sometimes you NEED that hand to keep the overanxious pitcher from throwing to the not quite ready batter. This is a safety issue and you are RIGHT to slow him down. But he doesn't get a free ticket to PICK OFF a baserunner, either. Ball is DEAD.

Note.. be sure to PUT THE BALL IN PLAY after using "THE HAND!"

2nd Item: When working with a veteran partner.. and no runners on THIRD.. you CAN quickly clean the plate WITHOUT calling time. I strive to kill the ball as INFREQUENTLY as possible.. keep it live. I make quick eye contact with base ump and clean the plate.. if something happens... I know he will deal with it.

OF COURSE, with a runner on third.. ALWAYS call TIME before cleaning the plate.. the consequences of THAT play are obvious.

Mike B
EWS