Dropped strike three

[LMan]

my logic is, on a ball four/R1 stealing, even if the throw guns R1 out, hes still safe due to the walk (theres a case play on this, IIRC). Therefore, whether the catcher throws down there or not is irrelevant to the play. If its an overthrow and the stealing runner tries for third, *thats irrelevant to the ball four call.* Hes at risk no matter how loudly I call "ball 4," or if it was a strike.

OTOH, the BR erroneously running to 1B on a D3K (usually) impels R1 to advance, which puts him (R1) at serious risk. Of course, this can still happen since if they dont listen to you and advance anyway, and R1 goes, he is risking a putout.

Plus, my Ump's manual instructs me to call this "forcefully", so I do. It says nothing about calling "ball 4" forcefully. So thats what I do

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by mcrowder
It's EXTREMELY similar.

It's an example of the umpire changing the way he calls his play because of subsequent action.

Like a close play vs a no-brainer? Guess you never banged a runner out vs the obvious out by 20 feet out signal!LOL

It's an example of an umpire saying or doing things he shouldn't be saying or doing that could have an effect on action, when he should NOT be affecting action.

Like: "That's obstruction/interference/that's a catch/foul/time? If you have an out, declare the out!

This is a GREAT example.

I don't agree! It's like saying "Ball 1, ball 2,3. Who in da He!! does that?

99% of you out there would NEVER yell "Ball Four, Ball Four!!!" if you saw a catcher trying to throw R1 out when stealing on a base on balls. (Those that would can remain at their respective levels, and hope they never do such a thing in front of an evaluator or assignor).

Yet many of you who see why you should not make THAT call are proponents of "Batter's Out!! Batter's Out!!" as "preventative umpiring".

It's the SAME - and you should not do anything different on this play than you would normally.

I do it normally!

If you disagree --- tell me WHY "Ball Four!! Ball Four!!" is the wrong thing to do, but "Batter's Out!! Batter's
Out!!" is the right thing to do. I sit prepared to be dazzled by your logic.

I disagree!

And I'll tell you why.

IT'S AN OUT!!!!

THAT'S WHY! JEEZ!

Other experienced and respected officials on this site have given their view on this, which is to declare the out. "Batter's out"! Even saying it twice.

Have you not read the entire thread?

I don't see it as preventive officiating, I see it as calling an out when I see it.

I edited this to ask: how do you quote various parts of a post without it seeming as one, like I just did?

Sorry bout that! I'll get it sooner or later.





[Edited by thumpferee on May 4th, 2005 at 07:48 PM]

[DG]

Originally posted by mcrowder
It's EXTREMELY similar.

It's an example of the umpire changing the way he calls his play because of subsequent action. It's an example of an umpire saying or doing things he shouldn't be saying or doing that could have an effect on action, when he should NOT be affecting action.

This is a GREAT example.

99% of you out there would NEVER yell "Ball Four, Ball Four!!!" if you saw a catcher trying to throw R1 out when stealing on a base on balls. (Those that would can remain at their respective levels, and hope they never do such a thing in front of an evaluator or assignor).

Yet many of you who see why you should not make THAT call are proponents of "Batter's Out!! Batter's Out!!" as "preventative umpiring".

It's the SAME - and you should not do anything different on this play than you would normally.

If you disagree --- tell me WHY "Ball Four!! Ball Four!!" is the wrong thing to do, but "Batter's Out!! Batter's Out!!" is the right thing to do. I sit prepared to be dazzled by your logic.

I hever say Ball Four. All balls are called "BALL". What if BR was called out at 1B on a close play but made a sharp turn and started for 2B? Would you call him out again forcefully or stand there amused that he would attempt to do something he is not entitled to do?

Why should logic play into this? Why would we make a safe call on a BR at first when we know he missed the bag only to call him out when an appeal is made, but yet when same play happens at home we don't make a call until something else happens? It's because both are accepted mechanics. I was taught to forcefully call out a BR who can not advance to 1B on a dropped third strike, and it has never caused me a problem, so I keep doing it this way. You may have been trained differently. Don't expect a logical explanation for everything.

[Edited by DG on May 4th, 2005 at 11:00 PM]

[aevans410]

This situation reared its ugly head last night for me.

Reserve game, home team was up to bat. This school is known for its creative baserunning.

Bases loaded, 1 out. 3rd swinging strike is dropped. After reading Papa C's post about the proper mechanic in the case book, I loudly declared (multiple times mind you) Batter's out!

Low and behold, the defense STILL starts throwing the ball around like trained monkeys. The ball didn't get away, it was just mishandled. The runner takes off for first, R1 starts baiting the catcher, who makes a throw. He gets back, but R2 takes off. The throw goes to 3rd and they get R2 in a rundown. As soon as the ball is thrown from the plate, D coach is going nuts. He can't believe his players are doing this. "You should know better than to throw the ball around" and "You just gave em a run".

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by aevans410
This situation reared its ugly head last night for me.

Reserve game, home team was up to bat. This school is known for its creative baserunning.

Bases loaded, 1 out. 3rd swinging strike is dropped. After reading Papa C's post about the proper mechanic in the case book, I loudly declared (multiple times mind you) Batter's out!

Low and behold, the defense STILL starts throwing the ball around like trained monkeys. The ball didn't get away, it was just mishandled. The runner takes off for first, R1 starts baiting the catcher, who makes a throw. He gets back, but R2 takes off. The throw goes to 3rd and they get R2 in a rundown. As soon as the ball is thrown from the plate, D coach is going nuts. He can't believe his players are doing this. "You should know better than to throw the ball around" and "You just gave em a run".

So what have we learned, even though we anounce that the batter is out, the defense still doesn't listen. No advantage gained and we cover our butts as PU by announcing the out.

Now coaches need to start teaching their batters to just head to the dugout if they cannot advance.

Let me ask you aevans, did it feel funny to you announcing the batter's out, or did it seem natural?

[aevans410]

It felt odd. I definitely had to think about it. Thats the way NFHS wants it called though, thats the way I'll call it.

[JJ]

With regards to ball four - when I call a pitch a ball I say, "Ball" UNLESS it's ball four, then I say, "Ball four". Every now and then, with a runner on first and a full count, a catcher will ask me to "give me a quick and loud "ball four" if that's what the pitch is" - so he doesn't have to make a quick throw to second if it's not necessary. I oblige as best I can (that timing thing is involved...). If that makes me "umpirically" (yes, I made that word up) incorrect, I don't care.

[David B]

Originally posted by JJ
With regards to ball four - when I call a pitch a ball I say, "Ball" UNLESS it's ball four, then I say, "Ball four". Every now and then, with a runner on first and a full count, a catcher will ask me to "give me a quick and loud "ball four" if that's what the pitch is" - so he doesn't have to make a quick throw to second if it's not necessary. I oblige as best I can (that timing thing is involved...). If that makes me "umpirically" (yes, I made that word up) incorrect, I don't care.

I always say the same "ball four". I want them to know so the game keeps moving.

But even better, when there are three balls I will say the count to batter and catcher. 3-1 or 3-0 etc.,

I've found that anything I can do to inform will only help keep the game smoother and that makes it better for the umpires.

I don't assume that players know anything, and I know for certain that coaches DO NOT know anything.

Call the batter out and if they want to run around let them, but I've covered myself and my partners.

Same as the infield fly, call it and then when all kind of mess happens, you've done you're job.

I guess I would put these under preventive officiating.

Thanks
David