Coach checking out your strike zone?

[PatF]

12U level of play. One of the coaches leaves the dugout and goes outside the fence. He stands behind the plate umpire. Coach does not make any comments to the umpire about pitch location. Plate umpire never even knew the coach was there. Coach comes back into the dugout a short while later. Between innings the base umpire informs the manager if the coach leaves the field again, he will not be allowed back in the dugout.

This same coach did the same thing to me in a game earlier in the week. I noticed him there and I was expecting him to make some sort of comment about pitch location. He never made any comments that I could hear and he never said anything to me, so I did not address it with the manager.

Manager from the team approaches me after the game asking for rules reference, why can't coach do that, etc., etc.

I tell him it's not allowed by rule. I'm thinking of 3.09 and 3.17, but I don't quote rule or reference to him. I just tried to explain that all players and coaches must remain in the field of play during the game. I also told him when I see a coach behind me, there is only reason I expect he is there... he doesn't like my strike zone and he is there to check it out. Manager tells me they are just trying to see where the catcher is setting up to receive the pitches. (interpretation... it looks like a strike from the dugout) I told him he could ask me and I would be happy to let him know where his catcher was located.
Regardless of his explanation of catcher location... the basic reason for having the coach go outside the fence is the same. They don't believe the strike zone.

My questions...
1) Do you allow a coach to leave the field to check out your strike zone?
2) How do you handle it?
3) What rules reference or explanation do you give to the manager?

Thanks.

[mick]

Originally posted by PatF

My questions...
1) Do you allow a coach to leave the field to check out your strike zone?
2) How do you handle it?
3) What rules reference or explanation do you give to the manager?

PatF,
OBR 3.17 ("...confined themselves to their team benches....") should be clear enough for a coach to understand. In Little League that rule falls under Bench Decorum ("...shall not leave the bench...."). Find the rule that works for league you are working.

The zone is where it is. I wouldn't worry about that part.
I would explain the rule and thank the coach for abiding by it. If appropriate, praise the other team for remaining in their bench area.

Lower-level, inexperienced coaches are not always well-versed in the rules. Sometimes they just need a little guidance, (Please, return to your bench.)
mick

[DG]

Originally posted by PatF
12U level of play. One of the coaches leaves the dugout and goes outside the fence. He stands behind the plate umpire. Coach does not make any comments to the umpire about pitch location. Plate umpire never even knew the coach was there. Coach comes back into the dugout a short while later. Between innings the base umpire informs the manager if the coach leaves the field again, he will not be allowed back in the dugout.

This same coach did the same thing to me in a game earlier in the week. I noticed him there and I was expecting him to make some sort of comment about pitch location. He never made any comments that I could hear and he never said anything to me, so I did not address it with the manager.

Manager from the team approaches me after the game asking for rules reference, why can't coach do that, etc., etc.

I tell him it's not allowed by rule. I'm thinking of 3.09 and 3.17, but I don't quote rule or reference to him. I just tried to explain that all players and coaches must remain in the field of play during the game. I also told him when I see a coach behind me, there is only reason I expect he is there... he doesn't like my strike zone and he is there to check it out. Manager tells me they are just trying to see where the catcher is setting up to receive the pitches. (interpretation... it looks like a strike from the dugout) I told him he could ask me and I would be happy to let him know where his catcher was located.
Regardless of his explanation of catcher location... the basic reason for having the coach go outside the fence is the same. They don't believe the strike zone.

My questions...
1) Do you allow a coach to leave the field to check out your strike zone?
2) How do you handle it?
3) What rules reference or explanation do you give to the manager?

Thanks.

I don't think a coach could get behind me without me knowing it, unless is in a sky box or something. And I would not allow it.

[cowbyfan1]

a coach checking out an umpire strike zone?? like that never happens from anywhere on the field.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

For NFHS...

Per RULE 3-3-1h
A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:
h. enter the area behind the catcher while the opposing pitcher and catcher are in their positions;

PENALTY The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. The umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats th eoffense. ... For coaches who violate g, h, i, j, k, or l, the umpire may (1) restrict the offender to the bench/dugout for the remainder of the game or (2) eject the offender. Any coach restricted to the bench shall be ejected for further misconduct.

A coach going behind the backstop to "checkout your strike zone" is not a "minor" offense.

I'm unable to find such a rule anywhere but in NFHS rules. So in OBR games, like for a 12 and under league where the coaches are mostly unknowing and there is no specific rule, perhaps one could consider it a minor error and restrict him to the dugout. In High School games, I feel this is grounds for immediate ejection.

OBR has a couple rules that are close but not specific:

3.17 Players and substitues of both teams shall confine themselves to the team's benches, unless actually participating in the play or preparing to enter the game, or coaching at first or third base. PENALTY: For violation the umpire may, after warning, remove the offender from the field.

4.05 talks about base coaches and them staying in their coaching box and removal from the game for violation... but it doesn't really address going behind the backstop.

Perhaps someone else knows of an OBR reference prohibiting such activities...??

But without a specific rule, perhaps a league rule, I guess in OBR games (non-High School), the offender is warned and subsequently ejected per 3.17?

[cbfoulds]

DownTown:

I would say, basically, yes. OBR 3.17, with a helping of 9.01b [NOT "c"] - an umpire may require any palyer or coach/manager to do or refrain from doing anything that affects the administration of the Rules. Penalty for willful & persistent violation of an umpire's "lawful orders" under 9.01b is EJ.

HOWEVER, unless I actually started to hear crap from the dugout or the squirel behind the screen, I'd be inclined to ignore it [some coach "checking out" the zone I'm calling]. I can think of any number of legitimate coaching reasons, having nothing at all to do with griping about my calls, that might motivate such an act. In my area, we let [like we have a choice] spectators sit there & "comment" on the zone, after all.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I'm unable to find such a rule anywhere but in NFHS rules. So in OBR games, like for a 12 and under league where the coaches are mostly unknowing and there is no specific rule, perhaps one could consider it a minor error and restrict him to the dugout.

You can't restrict people to the dugout in OBR.

[bbump82]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
DownTown:

HOWEVER, unless I actually started to hear crap from the dugout or the squirel behind the screen, I'd be inclined to ignore it [some coach "checking out" the zone I'm calling]. I can think of any number of legitimate coaching reasons, having nothing at all to do with griping about my calls, that might motivate such an act. In my area, we let [like we have a choice] spectators sit there & "comment" on the zone, after all.

I agree w/CB on this. Although we also allow people to sit behind the screen, I won't take any comments from a coach from back there. I had the original sit happen once but started hearing chirping from behind me. I ignored it till I heard "Don't throw another curve, he doesn't know what one looks like!" I turned around to get a look at who it was and realized it was one of the coaches, and it was also the dad of the F1. Called time and went to the fence and told him "you have a choice to make, either get in the dugout or go the the parking lot!" He picked the dugout. Later that night in the parking lot, had the guy drives over to my car while I was changing clothes and gives me a verbal backhanded apology.
Says that he was sorry about the abuse, ... the tells me that he has umpired alot as well and knows good pitches when he sees them, and then drives off while I'm just standing there. I really wanted to tell him that the only way his kid was going to get the ball across the plate was to hand it to the catcher!!

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by LDUB

You can't restrict people to the dugout in OBR.

At the risk of stirring up some serious doody here: actually, yes, you can - see 9.01b, again.

In little-boy ball it is sometimes handy/ appreciated if you do this, since there may be only one league-sanctioned "adult" in attendance, and tossing them means a forfeit. Don't want to penalise the kids if Daddy's an idiot: restrict him, tell him if'n there's another rude peep out of him it WILL be an EJ and a forfeit, let the little guys play.

Now, it sometimes happens that the fool you are trying to do a favor for is too stoopid to accept your generosity: if you restrict someone in an ORB-based game, and they object because there is no explicit rule for it, like there is in FED ball - why, oblige them and make it an ejection.

While there is no rule-based reason not to, I'd seldom recomend doing this for HS-age kids or coaches in an ORB-based league.

[mick]

Originally posted by LDUB

You can't restrict people to the dugout in OBR.

You can't ?
Then what is the intent of OBR 3.17 ?
Thanks.
mick

[LDUB]

Originally posted by mick

You can't ?
Then what is the intent of OBR 3.17 ?
Thanks.
mick

3.17 has nothing to do with the umpire restricting players to the bench for the remainder of the contest. 3.17 says players have to remain in their bench area if they are not participating in the game.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
At the risk of stirring up some serious doody here: actually, yes, you can - see 9.01b, again.

In little-boy ball it is sometimes handy/ appreciated if you do this, since there may be only one league-sanctioned "adult" in attendance, and tossing them means a forfeit. Don't want to penalise the kids if Daddy's an idiot: restrict him, tell him if'n there's another rude peep out of him it WILL be an EJ and a forfeit, let the little guys play.

Now, it sometimes happens that the fool you are trying to do a favor for is too stoopid to accept your generosity: if you restrict someone in an ORB-based game, and they object because there is no explicit rule for it, like there is in FED ball - why, oblige them and make it an ejection.

While there is no rule-based reason not to, I'd seldom recomend doing this for HS-age kids or coaches in an ORB-based league.

You are really pushing it if you are saying the coach being on the field is preventing the enforcement of the rules.

[mick]

Originally posted by LDUB

3.17 has nothing to do with the umpire restricting players to the bench for the remainder of the contest. 3.17 says players have to remain in their bench area if they are not participating in the game.

...have to remain in their bench area if they are not participating in the game.

LDUB,
The sitch just wants the guy away from the backstop.
Looks like a restriction to me.
I must have missed the part about "for the rest of the game" in the thread.
I agree with "Play nice or leave".
mick

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by LDUB

You are really pushing it if you are saying the coach being on the field is preventing the enforcement of the rules.

You'd be absolutely right, except that what both the rule and I "say" is affecting administration of the rules.

Imposing bench arrest for an o/w ejectable offense certainly fits the description of ordering someone [ORB includes "club officers and employees" along with game participants like players and coaches] to do or refrain from doing something/ anything [confine your obnoxious self to the dugout & behave] which affects administration of the rules.

Not saying you have to do this; not even saying you SHOULD do this. I was just disagreeing with your statement that one CAN'T do this in an ORB game: if you feel it is necessary/ appropriate, 9.01b allows you to apply bench arrest to an ORB game. And pointing out that in little-kid ball EVERYONE will probably be grateful if you choose to do so in certain circumstances.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by mick

...have to remain in their bench area if they are not participating in the game.

LDUB,
The sitch just wants the guy away from the backstop.
Looks like a restriction to me.
I must have missed the part about "for the rest of the game" in the thread.
I agree with "Play nice or leave".
mick

Usually when one uses the phrase "restricted to the dugout", they are refering to the Federation way of doing things.

I agree you can use 3.17 to tell him to get in the dugout, but "restricting" is a different issue.