Mechanic - Help from Plate on Foot Pull

[mcrowder]

I realize that Tee is just simply a much better umpire than the rest of us, but I'm absolutely amazed that in 3600 games, there has NEVER been an errant throw that brought the fielder into a position where he's stretching directly toward Tee, thus obscuring his view of F3's foot. What an amazingly lucky umpire.

Positioning is HUGE, but there will ALWAYS eventually be events that are unviewable, even from the perfect vantagepoint.

I guess the PU in Tee's games don't have to get down the line at all - they will never be needed. What a relief for them.

[Tim C]

mr & OfficalTony:

I just move and lean as taught at professional school.

Pro school graduates are hounded "get your own calls" . . .

As a PU I always follow up the line to give help.

I think that it is simply a play that a BU is paid to make and there is no problem making it.

Rich Froneheiser and I have spoke about this for a number of years.

Why would you even assume that I don't "make the right call" . . . neither OfficalTony or you have ever seen me work. Why would you guys jump to the conclusion that a BU can't get the call right from the beginning.

I just don't understand why a BU needs help on a basic call.

[Edited by Tim C on Feb 24th, 2005 at 10:12 AM]

[mcrowder]

BU needs help on that call when the ball is not thrown perfectly and the fielder gets in the sightline between you and his own foot. It happens. To say it never does is frankly ridiculous.

Now perhaps because you are so much better than the rest of us, it happens more infrequently for you than us (perhaps the level of games you work is higher). But it DOES happen. To me, you saying it has NEVER happened tells me that on the 5-10 times it DID happen to you, your ego refused to allow you to ask for help. I may be reading more into that than there is ... but that's the way it comes across.

I would say I ask for help on that call at most 1-2 times a year. But it's good to have a mechanic that works for you and your partner when it does. Back to the original post, "FOOT!" is horrible.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I feel obliged to mention that the right answer is for the base umpire to get his a$$ into position and get the call right himself.

I agree when you're in the A position you should see this, but when you're in B or C you might need help on the swipe tag and pulled foot.

[mcrowder]

True - problem I've had at times is that occasionally if BU is in B or C, PU has other responsibilities and cannot be looking at BR.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by officialtony
I'm not sure where we came up with this idea of hand signals. I'm not sure why we don't just verbalize it ( when asked ). Obviously we do when requested from our partners. I know there are more than a few who do use these kinds of signals ( see mcrowder's post ). I will check with our association and see if I can come up with an answer and if necessary, change away from them.
Now I have a question for you. With all the experience you have with those who have gone to professional umpire schools and all the camps and clinics you have attended - including twice to the Jerry Davis umpiring clinic - why would you have to come to this forum with a question about someone yelling " foot " and looking to you for a response? Even a lowly official like myself knows that is improper mechanics (Not putting you down or trying to insult you don't misunderstand me).
Just curious.

Tony, I didn't have the question about someone yelling foot. Reading is a skill ( Not trying to insult you). The mechanic that you are using is wrong. If you know that it is improper why do you use it?

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Tim C
mr & OfficalTony:

I just move and lean as taught at professional school.

Pro school graduates are hounded "get your own calls" . . .

As a PU I always follow up the line to give help.

I think that it is simply a play that a BU is paid to make and there is no problem making it.

Rich Froneheiser and I have spoke about this for a number of years.

Why would you even assume that I don't "make the right call" . . . neither OfficalTony or you have ever seen me work. Why would you guys jump to the conclusion that a BU can't get the call right from the beginning.

I just don't understand why a BU needs help on a basic call.

[Edited by Tim C on Feb 24th, 2005 at 10:12 AM]

Tee,

Never been to any of the Pro schools but I am well aware of the "Get the call yourself" mechanic you and Rich have mentioned. For my own purposes, from the "B" or "C" positions, with the play at first being the second play by the infield, and the throw coming from around 3b, what is the footwork required to get oneself in position to make that call, CLEARLY.

Also, it is taught in the Pro schools however, I truly believe that most of officials that visit here are not, or have not attented them or work the Pro's. And if it is such a well accepted mechanic, why are almost all of the other manuals showing otherwise?

Finally, is this part of the old Pro philosophy that you handle your calls and I will handle mine, never the two shall meet. Live and die with it baby!

I am not choosing sides here, I'm just always trying to improve.

[Tim C]

" . . . Now perhaps because you are so much better than the rest of us, . . . "

I have never said I am better than everyone else. I have simply made a statement that ALL umpires that have went to professional school are taught and live by . . .

In all my games I really don't remember a manager coming out to even argue with me on this exact situation.

I think you have confused what you feel is arrognace with what I feel is good training and hard work.

Sorry you need to keep getting personal with me.

Like Rich, I feel a base umpire can make this call every time with training and hustle.

Can we simply agree to disagree?

[Tim C]

jicecone:

You asked:

"For my own purposes, from the "B" or "C" positions, with the play at first being the second play by the infield, and the throw coming from around 3b, what is the footwork required to get oneself in position to make that call, CLEARLY."

Let's just make one simple decision to make this common mechanincs. However the play has happened and where ever the runners started you want me to cover the play at first as second play with the throw coming from F5's area.

Great start:

I began the play in either "B" or "C".

There was a call made at either second or third base which moved me towards that base and then the ball got to the F5 area. It really isn't imporant how it got these to answer your question.

As F5 starts the throwing motion I am somewhere around the mound (can't say exactly as we don't know how the play occurred);

Many things start happening in my mind at this time:

I quickly read F5's intentions, I recognize that there are (or could be) other runners on the bases whewre F5 may shift his attention to them . . .

After pausing and reading I start a drift towards the correct angle (remember, angle over distance) to make the play if the throw is a good throw (I assume that the fielder will make a good) . . .

Since I am still watching the fielder as I drift I know read a second action -- the quality of the throw . . .

As the throw starts to pass me I turn and become set (most of the time I have made some distance but mostly angle) NEVER having taken my eyes from the ball.

As the ball nears F3 I shift my view down F3 body towards his feet (this is the first indication of a bad throw as we'll see F3 shifting) . . .

Continuing to read F3 I then take (at most) a half step to adjust my angle THEN if there is a problem I lean (right or left) while watching F3's foot . . .

I then listen for the ball hitting the glove, and watch the fielder's foot and for the runners foot touching the base.

When the ball is complete I make my call.

I agree that most umpires that work non-professional games are held to a different set of expectations. I am answering first for me and then for umpires that need further training.

Can an umpire get "straight lined"? Sure.

Could I have possibly been "straight lined"? Sure.

If I WAS "straight lined" would I ask for help? . . . don't know, can't answer honestly but I would hope that I would have the call (in my heart) and make the call.

In closing, have I ever been trapped clear over in "C" and made a long distance call at first in a situation where there is (or is not) a pulled foot? Sure.

And I made my call with the information I had at the time.

[jicecone]

Thanks Tee,

I kind of had your answer in mind before I asked but, I think it should be helpful to all.

Actually the pulled foot is easier to detect than the tag, and I'm assuming that you have asked for help in those situations. Either way, thanks

[gordon30307]

Can an umpire get "straight lined"? Sure.

Could I have possibly been "straight lined"? Sure.

If I WAS "straight lined" would I ask for help? . . . don't know, can't answer honestly but I would hope that I would have the call (in my heart) and make the call.


I don't understand why wouldn't you ask for help?

In closing, have I ever been trapped clear over in "C" and made a long distance call at first in a situation where there is (or is not) a pulled foot? Sure.

And I made my call with the information I had at the time.

What if your information is wrong and your partner clearly saw the pulled foot? Why guess. As the plate umpire with a runner on first I'm rotating to cover third. As I move down the line I have the perfect angle to see the pulled foot. With runners on first and second or a runner on second I'm staying home to cover the plate. I can easily position my self to see the touch of third and to help with the pulled foot at first. Hey I'm your partner I don't understand why you wouldn't come to me if help were needed.

Last season I had to ask for help one time (just worked out that way). I was in the b or c and with a swipe tag at first I was 95% sure I had a tag, but, just to be certain I went to my partner at the plate and he confirmed what I saw and I banged him. Offensive Coach comes out I told him just what I related above and my partner confirms and he turns around and goes back to coaching third.





[/B][/QUOTE]

[Tim C]

I admit freely to being an old timer.

I admit freely that the new concept "of get the call right no matter what" has been hard for me accept.

I also admit freely that after games when asking partners (and you know partners they NEVER tell you the truth) if I nailed the specific call they have always replied, "yes!"

gordon I believe that in EVERY play I had enough and proper information to make the call . . . if you were in "C" and there was a pickoff at third and you couldn't see the tag . . . would you ask the PU for help?

I know my answer to that one . . .

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Tim C
I admit freely to being an old timer.

I admit freely that the new concept "of get the call right no matter what" has been hard for me accept.

I also admit freely that after games when asking partners (and you know partners they NEVER tell you the truth) if I nailed the specific call they have always replied, "yes!"

gordon I believe that in EVERY play I had enough and proper information to make the call . . . if you were in "C" and there was a pickoff at third and you couldn't see the tag . . . would you ask the PU for help?

I know my answer to that one . . .

Hey Tim as the field guy the only mechanic I know of where it's proper to ask for help is at first. Obviously I'll live and die with my call elsewhere. The proper mechanic is for the plate guy to be prepared to help his partner. Now if I were working with you I'd be prepared to help, but, if you don't want it I've got no problem with you living and dieing with whatever call you make. And if asked you gotta help him on this one my answer would be "I'm sure my partner got it right. If he needed my input he would have asked." In terms of getting the call right if the boys in blue in the show have adopted this philosophy who am I to argue that it's wrong.

[mcrowder]

I didn't mean to get personal, at least not in an insulting way. The "better than us" was not sarcasm. Obviously, you have been to more training than most of us, and you have worked more games than most of us. You are probably working higher level games than most of us, which in turn probably means less bad-throws or straightlining.

But it DOES happen, as I'm sure you agree.

I may try the leaning technique you mention above to see if it helps - I've been taught in the past to be as still as possible at the critical moment. I'll see if a lean helps me get an angle on the foot without causing too much head movement.

My question, though, is this - if you KNOW you are straightlined, or because of other action may not have the best angle, what motivates you to make a call (perhaps the call you have in your heart) without help when you are aware that you may not have all the information, and you are aware that the missing information is available if you would only ask.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by mcrowder

My question, though, is this - if you KNOW you are straightlined, or because of other action may not have the best angle, what motivates you to make a call (perhaps the call you have in your heart) without help when you are aware that you may not have all the information, and you are aware that the missing information is available if you would only ask.

Can't speak for anyone else here, but the motivation that gives you the confidence to make that call, is experience. Seeing the situation in front of you enough times, that you just KNOW your right. Can this lead to arrogance, you bet. That is the fine line ALL good officials have to walk, all the time.

Once you achieve this plateau of confidence through experience, well it just does'nt enter your mind that "you may not have all the information". You know you do.