Mechanic - Help from Plate on Foot Pull

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Tim C
Gordon:

Do you agree that if you BU calls the guy OUT! at first that there is no way that help can be asked for or given?

Tee

Yes.

[officialtony]

Please tell me why there would be no way you would go to PU for help if the Coach asks.

Also, would it be a different scenario if your call was safe and the defensive coach asks you to go to the PU for help?

Is it because you are sure of the call?

If so, does this call for an ejection if either Coach makes a huge ( I mean HUGE ) issue out of you not going to the PU?

I am learning.

Thanks.

[GarthB]

Tony, Paisan!

It is customary that if one is going to acknowledge that he wants help he should get it prior to making the call. Understandable?

Get all the information you need BEFORE making the call, then make your call.

When you make a call, you're telling everyone you've got the information you need for a decision and here it is.


[Edited by GarthB on Feb 24th, 2005 at 11:54 PM]

[Roger Greene]

Tony,
Softball umpires will tell you you should get help when the coach asks, even after a call. (I guess it's supposed to be a kinder, gentler world there.)

Don't let them confuse you. Listen to Garth & Tee.

I'm the Butthole on the softball board who says get it before or not at all. Really stirs them up sometimes.

Roger

[DG]

Originally posted by officialtony
Please tell me why there would be no way you would go to PU for help if the Coach asks.

Also, would it be a different scenario if your call was safe and the defensive coach asks you to go to the PU for help?

Is it because you are sure of the call?

If so, does this call for an ejection if either Coach makes a huge ( I mean HUGE ) issue out of you not going to the PU?

I am learning.

Thanks.

If you ask for help because the coach asked you to he will be like a jack in the box on every close call for the rest of the game, and for every one of his future games. If you made a call, safe or out, you must have felt sure about it so there is no need to ask your partner, and yes, if he makes a HUGE deal out of it, get rid of him.

The way I was taught is that if you are sure the ball beat the runner, but not sure if the fielder came off the bag ask the PU for help, before making a call. A simple point and question "was he on the bag?" should suffice, but while you are saying it your mind should be saying to you "if he was on the bag he is out", otherwise you would have called him safe. It has not happened very often either when I am on bases or plate, but the possibility is mentioned in pregame every time.

[officialtony]

Great advice from all.
Thank you.
It all makes good sense.
I don't want jack in the boxes.
I like the philosophy, that I have made the call because I have all the information I need.
And that I don't make the call until I do.
Thanks for the information.

[Rich]

Originally posted by officialtony
Wow,
Well I certainly haven't worked over 3600 games. I just read the FED Umpires Manual. When it says
" On the ground ball hit to the infield, head towards first base, either down the running lane or on the infield grass. Try to get at least 10 to 15 feet from home plate, the farther the better, but stop in time to watch the play at first. This initial hustle shortens the distance to where the action is. It also gives you a better vantage point from which to see runner infractions. Sometimes what starts as a routine play develops into a difficult situation for the base umpire. If the plate umpire has moved properly, he will be where he can see what is happening and be of assistance to his partner, if his help is requested. "( page 14, Item VI.,15 ), it certainly wasn't written for Tee because he NEVER needs help at 1st in that situation.
If the situation couldn't arise, FED wouldn't cover it.
I can tell you it was written for me because I may need help - and I will certainly ask for help if I need it because I want to make the RIGHT call. My ego isn't that big that I think I can't make a mistake or miss a call. Someday I'll be that good - I hope.

The FED manual goes into the trash the minute it arrives. Once it has the base umpire taking the BR into third on a bases empty triple like it should, I'll refrain from throwing it out.

I've asked for help once in 15 seasons. It was when a fielder ran in front of the first baseman making a play and I had no idea whether a tag was applied. A truly third world play. But on anything normal: Read, react, get in position (which means getting an angle, not running straight towards first base), get set, make the call.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Feb 25th, 2005 at 02:08 AM]

[Rich]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I realize that Tee is just simply a much better umpire than the rest of us, but I'm absolutely amazed that in 3600 games, there has NEVER been an errant throw that brought the fielder into a position where he's stretching directly toward Tee, thus obscuring his view of F3's foot. What an amazingly lucky umpire.

Positioning is HUGE, but there will ALWAYS eventually be events that are unviewable, even from the perfect vantagepoint.

I guess the PU in Tee's games don't have to get down the line at all - they will never be needed. What a relief for them.

No, because you ADJUST to the errant throw by reading it and getting a good angle. Sometimes it's a step or two, sometimes it's a lean, but I never, NEVER think that someone's going to bail me out. I might as well give him my check after the game is over.

[Rich]

Originally posted by gordon30307

I want to make sure I understand your post. Are you saying based upon what you have seen in the past even though you are reasonably sure (not 100%) you are correct you wouldn't go to your partner for help? My question to you would be why is there a mechanic in a two man system where the plate umpire is required to help the base umpire with plays at first? If I'm misunderstanding your post please clarify.

The plate umpire follows down the line for reasons having nothing to do with pulled feet, swipe tags, and other squirrels. There could be interference or the ball could get away and the PU needs to be in position to do his job.

I've been asked many times for help in games from LL through HS varsity. Without fail, the umpire asking for help is hopelessly out of position. If the umpire is still on the third base side of the mound when making a call at first (or asking help) he hasn't moved and worked to get into position. Step up, turn, RUN using cross teps and work to get an ANGLE. The proper angle is 90 degrees to the throw, or usually towards the 45' line -- how can a throw come "right towards an umpire" if the umpire is getting the right angle?

Reading a throw is a critical skill I don't see many umpires make. A last second step, lean, and look can make the difference between making the right call and not making the right call. The thing that disturbs me is that many umpires don't even try. They take the field with the attitude that the plate umpire is standing on the field holding a blankie that the base umpire can grab onto. I had to bail a guy out last season that was closer to third base than to the mound on a routine ground ball to short with a runner on second base.

See, I am always in position to give help. Tee would say the same thing because we've had this conversation in person. I don't take any partner for granted. But I'd probably not expect to be asked if Tee was my partner. Or Garth. Or people that I have faith in....

[Rich]

Originally posted by officialtony
Please tell me why there would be no way you would go to PU for help if the Coach asks.

Also, would it be a different scenario if your call was safe and the defensive coach asks you to go to the PU for help?

Is it because you are sure of the call?

If so, does this call for an ejection if either Coach makes a huge ( I mean HUGE ) issue out of you not going to the PU?

I am learning.

Thanks.

I am always glad to show someone the door if that's what's necessary. But it's not necessary in the realm of trained coaches.

[fwump]

Tee,

Excellant reply and I agree with all you say. My response was toungue-in-cheek. I was trying to be ironic. Actually I agree with most of your opinions and respect your level of experience and expertise. And I understand the idea you were expessing on your "3600" games reply and I agree. Its just hard not to respond to bombastic statements. I meant no dis-respect.

Mike

[gordon30307]

[/B][/QUOTE]

The plate umpire follows down the line for reasons having nothing to do with pulled feet, swipe tags, and other squirrels. There could be interference or the ball could get away and the PU needs to be in position to do his job.

Beg to differ with you on this. Plate umpire goes down the 1B line when BU is in A position for the following reasons:

Possible pulled foot and swipe tag. Why you say this is not a reason is beyond me.
Possible interference as per above.
Possible Obstruction.
Possible tag by a fielder first 45 feet up the line.
Ball getting away as per above.
Rule on fair or foul on a bunt up the first base line.
And most importantly if the BU should slip and fall, get "tangled up" with fielder and or runner because of an errant throw or somehow is unable to take BR into second and possibly third base PU will now be able to do this (simialar to doing one man mechanics) and BU will have time to recover in order to cover the plate if necessary.

[Tim C]

Gordon:

There is no such thing as "one man mechanics" . . .

Respectfully, I also have never seen or even heard of the BU getting trapped as you have listed.

Now we did, long ago, do the mirror thingy that if the BU felt pressure and went foul that the PU would cover inside (i.e. mirroring)and lead the play to second base if necessary.

I agree with Rich's statement in basic terms . . . the PU following up the line has many, many more things more important than helping on a swipe tag or pulled foot. (Actually a pulled foot would not even make my radar as a PU).

[jicecone]

Originally posted by gordon30307

And most importantly if the BU should slip and fall, get "tangled up" with fielder and or runner because of an errant throw or somehow is unable to take BR into second and possibly third base PU will now be able to do this (simialar to doing one man mechanics) and BU will have time to recover in order to cover the plate if necessary.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I can't believe what I just read. THIS is the most important reason for PU to come up the line?

One man mechanics?

Gordon, I'm truly not trying to be a a##Hole critic here, but take the advise of others here and strive to get the call yourself, and you will find, that that same hustle, will help improve many parts of your officiating experience.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by jicecone

And most importantly if the BU should slip and fall, get "tangled up" with fielder and or runner because of an errant throw or somehow is unable to take BR into second and possibly third base PU will now be able to do this (simialar to doing one man mechanics) and BU will have time to recover in order to cover the plate if necessary.

I can't believe what I just read. THIS is the most important reason for PU to come up the line?

One man mechanics?

Gordon, I'm truly not trying to be a a##Hole critic here, but take the advise of others here and strive to get the call yourself, and you will find, that that same hustle, will help improve many parts of your officiating experience.

You have never ever ever....... done a game by yourself? You've never had a partner get hurt and be unable to continue, go to the wrong field or simply not shown up. If this is the case you are truly blessed. In my neck of the woods most Freshman games are done with one umpire. Many summer tournament games are done with one umpire and virtually all Summer League High School regardless of level is done with one umpire. And yes there is something called One man Mechanics. And out of necessity you better know how to do a game by yourself. Give me a fax number and I'd be happy to dig this info. out and fax it to you. Concerning sophmore it's not unusual do a game by yourself. And yes as the PU you better be prepared as the plate umpire to take the BR to second and beyond in the unlikely event BU can't do this for the reasons described. And yes it's of utmost importance that the bases be covered.

And of course you try to get the call yourself, but, if you can't that's why you have a partner.