Is this a balk move?

[ump24]

Recently this play happened to me in a scrimmage. The pitcher was right handed and in the stretch. There were runners on first and second. The pitcher, with out stepping back off the rubber, spins toward first and throws the ball to second. Some may have called this a "inside move". I immediately balk the pitcher and move the runners. F1 then asks me what he did? I explain that if he is going to spin toward first to throw to second he must step off the back. He reluctantly agrees and continues on. Between innings the pitching coach comes over and asks me about my call. I explain it to him. He strongly disagrees. He says the move is legal. He says check it in the book. I cannot find in the book were it says I can call this a balk. Am I right or wrong? If so does a left hander have to step off when doing the same move with a runner on third? HELP!!!!!

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by ump24
Recently this play happened to me in a scrimmage. The pitcher was right handed and in the stretch. There were runners on first and second. The pitcher, with out stepping back off the rubber, spins toward first and throws the ball to second. Some may have called this a "inside move". I immediately balk the pitcher and move the runners. F1 then asks me what he did? I explain that if he is going to spin toward first to throw to second he must step off the back. He reluctantly agrees and continues on. Between innings the pitching coach comes over and asks me about my call. I explain it to him. He strongly disagrees. He says the move is legal. He says check it in the book. I cannot find in the book were it says I can call this a balk. Am I right or wrong? If so does a left hander have to step off when doing the same move with a runner on third? HELP!!!!!

I would have to see the actual move to make a definite ruling. However, the move sounds legal. The OBR makes it clear that a pitcher may try a pick off to any base except home from the rubber. (8.01c, 8.05c) A righty can do this to second by swiveling either to his right or left, whichever he feels more comfortable doing. As long as the move is clearly to second and he does not hesitate or move toward first or third, such a move is legal.

P-Sz

[Tim C]

As F1 passes the occupied first base he has deceived that runner in his continuation.

This would be a balk to First Base and runners would advance.

The only legal way for F1 to go to second would be by turning to the third base side or step off the pitcher's plate.

Think about this clearly.

F1 must pass a direct line to first base to make this throw.

If he does not step off it is a balk.

IMHO

[ump24]

I absolutely agree but can anyone tell me were it appears in the rule book?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ump24
I absolutely agree but can anyone tell me were it appears in the rule book?

I disagree. Doesn't a LH pitcher also go past that "direct line to first" when he throws to second? That's not a balk, and there aren't any differences in the rules for RH and LH pitchers.

As long as it was a "smooth" turn to second, with no "feint" to first along the way, I think it's a legal play.

[Tim C]

First blush I had balk . . . Jenkins is moving me over, Hensley may have played the trump card.

[ump24]

The comment was made that it is a balk to first because the RHP did not step off the back. I agree, to not step off the back isn't this move initially a feint to first base? The arguement was then made that a LHP balks in the same way by turning and throwing to second. WRONG!!!!
Once the LHP crosses the "midway" line he is committed to throw to second or to pitch the ball. He may no longer throw to first. THIS PLAY WITH A RHP IS A BALK. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS WERE IS IT IN THE RULE BOOK?

[DDonnelly19]

Let me make sure I'm on the same page here...

RHP, R1, R2. F1, instead of turning clockwise (going towards 3B), instead goes the long way (counter-clockwise) and rotates past 1B in his move to 2B. Unless the pitcher "dekes" R1 on his motion to 2B, what's the harm?

Let's take a LHP with R2 and R3. F1 takes the long way and spins clockwise (towards 3B) on his move to 2B. Is this a feint towards a base without a step? I highly doubt it, since it's clear that the pitcher's intent was to throw (or feint) to 2B.

If we don't allow a RHP to turn that way, we can make the same argument with a LHP rotating towards 3B. I can't see how a complete turn without hesitation can be considered a balk.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by ump24
The comment was made that it is a balk to first because the RHP did not step off the back. I agree, to not step off the back isn't this move initially a feint to first base?

I'm trying to understand your question so here goes.

First, you do not have to step off the rubber in order to pick off a runner, in fact it is probably better to get your young F1's in the habbit of picking off runners from the rubber because of the penalties involved should F1 throw the ball out of play.

Once F1 steps off the rubber (legally of coarse), he is no longer treated as F1 and can Feint all he wants to. He cannot (while in contact with the pitcher's plate) feint a throw to First per 8.05(b)

In your example we all would probably have to see a tape of this kids spin move to determine its validity. If as Bob and Dave mentioned, in his spin he didn't feint to first, this would be legal.

The way I visualize (for it to be legal) is as follows:
From the stretch, I lift my free foot (not crossing the back edge of the plane) and in one continuous motion I spin (without pointing my free foot towards first) and attempt to pickoff r2.

Pete Booth

[Tim C]

I was TRYING (lord help me, I was) NOT to do the following play. But it seems to fit this discussion . . .

I have talked and talked of this and NO ONE believes me.

When a right handed F1 is in contact with the pitcher's plate and he raises his front foot (that would be left foot) almost all runners are taught to start their move from the occupied first base.

For a moment let's disregard the jump spin move.

I did a survey (oh no, sorry Peter that usually is your job) watching MLB pitchers (on TV), college pitchers, high school pitchers and summer leagues.

During this survey I did not see one right handed pitcher make a move to first base without first stepping off. Remember I asked that for the moment we disregard the jump turn.

So I posted "Right handers always step back before making the pickoff move OR it is a balk" (i.e. I know what the rule book says).

So right a way a McGriffer posted he just watched Kevin Brown and he did not step off once . . . soooo, I watched the next two times I could see Brown on TV and he used the Greg Maddox jab step (not exactly the jumpt turn).

Now I don't work lower levels of ball where just bad coaching comes into effect so my decision is based on rather competent people playing.

So following Bob Jenkins rules on if it is legal for a lefthander it is legal for a righthander I ask the NEXT logical question.

"Can a Right Handed F1, with first base occupied, bring his front leg up to chest height (not breaking the pane of the pitcher's plate) and from that position swing around to throw legally to 1st base."

If a left hander can use this move to 1st base why can't a righthander.

I tell you right now . . . every single umpire I have ever worked with would call this a balk.

So when the right hander passes an occupied first base in his counter-clockwise turn he has balked to first base.

Long answer and probably wrong. :-}

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Tim C
First blush I had balk . . . Jenkins is moving me over, Hensley may have played the trump card.

If we are talking OBR rules, here is the rule-based justification for Bob's position:

OBR 8.05 End Note (b)

"With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base."

JEA Appendix 27 says the implication is R1 must be making a legitimate attempt to advance, and the pitcher making a play on him at 2nd, or it would still be a balk.

I don't know what you would have under FED rules.

Cheers,

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
In the present situation we have both R1 and R2; the play you cite is for an R1 only, and is explaining why the move to 2B is not a balk for throwing to an unoccupied base. I think ump24 wants this to be balk for being a feint to 1B from the rubber.

Ok, I missed the extra runner. No problem. It still isn't a balk unless F1 hesitates to 1st. Simply passing first in turning that direction is NOT a balk, even WITHOUT R2, so it isn't likely to be one WITH R2. The rule reference is still relevant. The clear implication from this citation is that any hesitation toward 1st would be considered a feint and balked. The corollary is that with no hesitation, there is no balk.

From contact with the rubber the pitcher may do one of three(3) things, including step to a base and throw (or feint to throw except to first base). If F1 does NOT step toward 1st, or hesitate toward 1st while stepping to 2nd, he is performing a legal step and throw to 2nd base and so should not be balked. The direction of his TURN is irrelevant under the rules. What's more, if the bases were loaded and F1 turned the opposite way, but hesitated toward 3rd in his turn, I WOULD be tempted to call a balk for not stepping DIRECTLY to the base while in contact - same as for a 3-1 move where the pitcher doesn't disconnect the rubber during the feint to the initial base.

Bottom line, absent a hesitation to 1st on the turn I've got NOTHING.

Cheers,

[Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 20th, 2001 at 04:57 PM]

[Patrick Szalapski]

Wow, I thought that one was straightforward. Strange things, strange things. I'm glad you guys talked it over, though; I think it helps more than confuses when we disagree at first and then come to consensus.

P-Sz

[Ump20]

Originally posted by DDonnelly19
Let me make sure I'm on the same page here...

RHP, R1, R2. F1, instead of turning clockwise (going towards 3B), instead goes the long way (counter-clockwise) and rotates past 1B in his move to 2B. Unless the pitcher "dekes" R1 on his motion to 2B, what's the harm?

Let's take a LHP with R2 and R3. F1 takes the long way and spins clockwise (towards 3B) on his move to 2B. Is this a feint towards a base without a step? I highly doubt it, since it's clear that the pitcher's intent was to throw (or feint) to 2B.

If we don't allow a RHP to turn that way, we can make the same argument with a LHP rotating towards 3B. I can't see how a complete turn without hesitation can be considered a balk.

Thanks for an umpiring post. I think this move would have to be seen before rendering a decision. It seems to me that to attempt a pickoff on a runner at second you a RHP can do any of three moves. First, is to step off the rubber at which point the pitcher has become a fielder and can throw or not. The second is to lift his left leg up in the air spin on his right foot toward 3B and throw to second. This is an excellent move with lst and second occupied, two outs and 3-2 count. Runners often go on the initial leg movement. The third seems to be the one described and I do not think that a runner being present on first base creates a balk as long as the pitcher makes no direction toward the plate and does not disengage his right foot before throwing to second. Jim/NY

[JJ]

If a RHP can jump-turn inside or outside to second base, why shouldn't he be allowed to spin inside or outside? That's my logic on the move described... I'd look for continuous motion as much as anything.