Play at First

[Michael J. Strybel]

Carl,
I appreciate the last line more than you know.

I didn't mean to slight anyone about my clinician's comment to JJ. I know him through the Illinois High School Association and meant it only as a courtesy. I was unaware of your resume or anyone else that fills a similar role.

My question was directed to JJ since he is aware of the mechanics we use here. I assumed that most states teach their umpires to watch the ball first and swivel back and forh between secondary action. I considered R1 to not be much of a threat in the original play. Gordon implied that his partner was watching the play. If I am mistaken, then I apologize.

[WindyCityBlue]

Why are you apologizing? Papa C. has his blinders on again. God forbid that someone should actually challenge his rule interps. Gordon0307 said that his partner saw the missed tag at first. His conscience got the better of him and he came here to learn what went wrong. I told him that his partner let him down. He was screened and had to make a tough call. His partner was not and told him so. Papa C. advocates selling the tough call and living with it, even if your partner saw something that was obvious to everyone in the ball park but him. That logic says that even though they do it at the D-1, Minor and Major League levels, you should live with a sh*tty call. Remember it's all about the accolades. Oh, just in case you didn't know, Papa C. is taking credit for the tossed glove call being redefined by Fed next year. That is quite a proud moment, taking responsibility for a horrible interpretation of the rule. Did you know that he was the first clinician in Texas? I think he threw that in there just in case he thought you were bragging.

By the way, nice try with the strong arm re: Rut. They killed the thread. In case you didn't catch it, you don't have the power in UMPS anymore. Grievances don't scare me, either.

[JJ]

"While I'm moving, though, I am watching for a swipe tag and a foot at first."

Michael, once I head for third I hope my partner doesn't ask for help on a foot pull or swipe tag at first. I have to watch the runner from first touch second while I'm moving as well, and I'd hate to have the defense appeal a missed base while I'm watching for a foot pull at a different base. Am I saying I never see a foot pull while moving? No, but it's really poor umpiring on my partner's part if he expects me to see it. He needs to realize I have other duties and the call at first as described in the thread)is his alone. I'm running away from the play AND the angle, and my ability to sell a call there is absolutely awful. It would rightfully elicit a nasty response from the other team if the call went against them.
December it is! Then it's almost baseball season!

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by JJ
"While I'm moving, though, I am watching for a swipe tag and a foot at first."

Michael, once I head for third I hope my partner doesn't ask for help on a foot pull or swipe tag at first. I have to watch the runner from first touch second while I'm moving as well, and I'd hate to have the defense appeal a missed base while I'm watching for a foot pull at a different base. Am I saying I never see a foot pull while moving? No, but it's really poor umpiring on my partner's part if he expects me to see it. He needs to realize I have other duties and the call at first as described in the thread)is his alone. I'm running away from the play AND the angle, and my ability to sell a call there is absolutely awful. It would rightfully elicit a nasty response from the other team if the call went against them.
December it is! Then it's almost baseball season!

Come to Texas. I have an 18u double-header on Saturday and an 18u double-header at Los Fresnos (about 10 miles from the ocean) on Sunday. You let me know, I'll dump my partners. They're both dogs anyway. (grin)

[WindyCityBlue]

Mr. Johnston,
I agree that it is not our primary duty to watch for pulled feet or swipe tags once we are on the move. However, we have both worked many a game where we have caught things because we know where to look. Strybel said, at this level, our "heads are on swivels" and I agree. That is what we were taught in Pro School and that is what we do on the field. Even the Pros watch one another's backs and have the cajones to change calls made by veterans.

But I got to thinking...I know a dangerous thing for an umpire to attempt, but I did it. A couple of people (some that take great pride in their accomplishments) have suggested that a field umpire would never change a call made by the PU. I can think of several examples that I have been involved with, where that very thing happened. Knowing how long you've been around, I'm sure that these are common to your experience.

1) The batter fouls one off his foot and the PU is completely screened. He jumps out, mask in hand and indicates "Fair" as the catcher scoops it up and fires to first. I am the BU and see it hit the batter from over 90 feet away - he's just three - how could I possibly overrule his call? Experience, good eyes and the knowledge that my partners trust my judgement.

2) The "caught" foul tip, that really wasn't. I've been on both sides of this bad boy. The PU is blocked and by the time he can get a good look, the catcher is up and firing it to third.

3) The ubiquitous check swing. The PU calls "Ball" and mumbles "No he didn't" to the catcher. The head coach asks for the appeal and the field ump (don't care which side) signals "Strike". Okay, so we chase him out of the parking lot, but from his angle, it was clear.

4) I've also had the royal pain of having a batter step into the box with an illegal bat while I'm in the field. Remember, in Fed we check the bats and hats prior to the game and I alerted the team that the bat could not be used. The smarty thinks I won't notice when he steps in the box during his second AB. Wrong! I'll bet you've never seen that one called by the field umpire.

5) I'm in "C" last year, working with a rookie - good guy, but very green. The pitch comes inside, a 40 mph curve and the kid leans his elbow into it. He calls "Time" and awards first base. The defensive coach comes out and asks him to ask me for help. Great, now I've got to bail him out! The coach was right, my partner was wrong. I talked to my partner and asked him if he thought the kid intentionally leaned into it. He said it doesn't matter. Now, I've got a headache...I tell him the rule and ask him to put the guy back in the box. Since it hit him in the strike zone, it is a strike. The offensive coach and I go way back. He doesn't say "Boo", because he knows what happened and he was up by six runs. The umps have a post game at our trunks and he says he was nervous and wanted to impress me. We've all been there.

These are just acouple of examples. For all of those members that feel that the boys from Illinois still have some learnin'...read them again. This wasn't one-upsmanship...it was getting the call right.

JJ - please ask the NFSHS to dump the tossed glove ruling. It is a joke and flies in the face of sportsmanship and gamesmanship.

[Atl Blue]

1) The batter fouls one off his foot and the PU is completely screened. He jumps out, mask in hand and indicates "Fair" as the catcher scoops it up and fires to first. I am the BU and see it hit the batter from over 90 feet away - he's just three - how could I possibly overrule his call? Experience, good eyes and the knowledge that my partners trust my judgement.

A batter being hit by a ball IS a shared call. And it is still NOT the BU's call of fair or foul, ONLY of TIME! It's still up to the PU whether the ball was fair or foul.

2) The "caught" foul tip, that really wasn't. I've been on both sides of this bad boy. The PU is blocked and by the time he can get a good look, the catcher is up and firing it to third.

A specific example as listed in the MLBUM where a BU may step in and help.

3) The ubiquitous check swing. The PU calls "Ball" and mumbles "No he didn't" to the catcher. The head coach asks for the appeal and the field ump (don't care which side) signals "Strike". Okay, so we chase him out of the parking lot, but from his angle, it was clear.

If asked, of course you give an honest response. But suppose the PU or the coach never ask. As BU, do you step in and announce a strike anyway?

4) I've also had the royal pain of having a batter step into the box with an illegal bat while I'm in the field. Remember, in Fed we check the bats and hats prior to the game and I alerted the team that the bat could not be used. The smarty thinks I won't notice when he steps in the box during his second AB. Wrong! I'll bet you've never seen that one called by the field umpire.

Another case where you are not overruling your partner. If ANY ump sees illegal equipment, then by all means, call it. And you are right, I have never seen a BU call an illegal bat, but if he does, I have no problem with it, unless I have already said it's legal. Now we have to have a talk.

5) I'm in "C" last year, working with a rookie - good guy, but very green. The pitch comes inside, a 40 mph curve and the kid leans his elbow into it. He calls "Time" and awards first base. The defensive coach comes out and asks him to ask me for help. Great, now I've got to bail him out! The coach was right, my partner was wrong. I talked to my partner and asked him if he thought the kid intentionally leaned into it. He said it doesn't matter. Now, I've got a headache...I tell him the rule and ask him to put the guy back in the box. Since it hit him in the strike zone, it is a strike. The offensive coach and I go way back. He doesn't say "Boo", because he knows what happened and he was up by six runs. The umps have a post game at our trunks and he says he was nervous and wanted to impress me. We've all been there.

You had to rectify a RULE mistake. As soon as he said "it didn't matter", now you have a rules issue. If he had said, "the ball did not hit the player in the strike zone and he made an attempt to avoid", you're stuck, because it's HIS call!

The MLBUM lists certain instances where a umpire may OFFER help to a partner:

-Deciding whether a fly ball that left the playing field was fair or foul
-Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or a ground rule double
-Cases where a foul tip is dropped by the catcher, causing it to become a foul ball
-Cases where an umpire clearly errs in judgment because a ball is dropped or juggled after making a tag or a force
-Spectator interference plays
-Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber

It also goes on to say:

"Some judgment calls are not subject to reversal. These include: Steal and other tag plays (except where the ball is dropped without the umpire's knowledge); force plays (when the ball is not dropped or the foot is not pulled); and balls and strikes (other than check swings). Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a catch/no catch situation with multiple runners."

It also says: "Managers are not entitled to a second opinion just because they dispute a call."

Put the shoe on the other foot. You are the plate ump, I am the BU.

1) Pitch comes in belt high, splitting the plate. You call it a ball. I KNOW it was a strike. I call time and come tell you you missed it, I SAW it split the plate at the belt.
2) You call a runner out at the plate on a banger, but I saw the runner sneak his foot in. I call time and tell you the runner is safe.
3) You have a possible OBS play on the catcher at the plate. You decide it was not OBS as the catcher was in the act of fielding the ball. But I KNOW the ball was at least 20' away from the catcher at the time. I call OBS from B on your play at the plate.
4) Or the one we have discussed at least twice: checked swing. You, the catcher, nor the coach ask you to ask for help. But I KNOW he went around, so I chime in "Strike" from my spot down in A.

Are these ridiculous examples? Of course, but so was the original premise: the BU called the runner safe, but you, the PU KNEW the F1 touched the base, so you come down to tell me I missed the call, and in the interest of "getting it right", we need to change it.

Get out of here - it's not your call. If I need your help, I know where you are.

[Jeremiah]

Regarding whether to call a runner out at 1st if the pitcher makes a second touch of the base. I would say if you see a touch of 1st the first time, then I have an out. If I'm unsure if he touched the first time and then he touches again, I would probably call him safe.

It's kind of like if there's a swipe tag. If you're unsure, the tendency is to call safe because he swiped it around. But if I see a touch, I'm going to call him out.

This may sound ridiculous, but don't give up free outs when there's a fair out made.

Jeremiah

[WindyCityBlue]

ATL?:

Thank you for illustrating my point. Several members have said that a field umpire would never dream of correcting a Plate umpire's call. I disagreed and gave examples. I was very aware of the MLBUM and what it said, since I work about forty Minor League games a year, as a local umpire.

As with all rules and laws, good arguments can be made either way. Some of yours were logical, others ludicrous. Of course I am not going to try to correct a called strike that was off the plate. But I have certainly corrected calls when my younger partner flinched and called ball - missing the swing.

Don't tell me to get real unless you work my schedule and have done what I have done. My career highlight wasn't being a scorekeeper for the Olympics. Nice try, but as they say..."Walk a mile in my shoes, before you judge me." It was a noble attempt, but you didn't stick the landing.

The Russian judge gives you a 8.5

[JJ]

Atl Blue hit the nail on the head, IMHO. There are calls which help may be rendered - even unsolicited - but the specific example given in the thread is not one of them. I don't want to irritate anyone (Windy), I'm just passing along the way I learned things in Pro school, clinics, from other more experienced umpires than I, and from 20+ years of doing it. If you want to do it a different way, that's why God invented pregames. Have at it!

[Rich]

Originally posted by orioles35
I agree. In pregame conference, I will always make sure the PU will be watching the pulled foot at 1st. If I get straight-lined by the 1st baseman where there's a chance his foot may have come off the bag, I will point to the PU for his call on the foot, then I make my call. Had one this weekend, heard some grumbling, but it was the right call.

You say "get straight-lined" as if it is a fact of life. It isn't. Get the right ANGLE and you will see the foot.

I've asked for help at first once in about 15 years. It was on a 3-1 play where F4 ran right in front of me at the time the ball arrived. I saw my partner out of the corner of my eye.

But I've had too many partners ask my help and then I recognize that the umpire is in the SAME SPOT as when the ball was hit. Too many people substitute help for "WORKING the bases." It is work and you do have to fight to get the best position.

[Rich]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Papa C. -

I'm confused: Because Gordon's partner said he got the call wrong, we know.... What?

In all this romantic BS of "let's get the call right," in a two-man crew what makes us so sure the first umpire is WRONG?

Experience...trust...commitment...I’m not sure what confuses you here. Most post games involve honest dialogue between partners. If I ask my partner(s) what they thought of my zone and he (they) say, “Man, it was awful. You were all over tonight.”, according to your logic, I’m to dismiss it because they couldn’t see what I saw.



Pulled foot? Maybe it didn't come off. Dropped ball? Perhaps the fielder knocked it out illegally. In a three- or four-man crew, it's possible to "get the call right" if the other umpires agree.

Yes, letÂ’s confuse the issue with hypotheticals. What if a lightning bolt shattered the ball while it was in the mitt? Did he have control of the ball? Where the ball???



I make a call, out comes the coach, and my partner agrees with the coach. So what? That just means two of them are wrong.

Is that the Papa C ego talking. Are you actually saying that you have made no mistakes on the ball field? That would be the only way that your statement would hold water.



Thanks, guys, but I'll stick to the tried and true method. If I have a doubt, I'll ask first and call later.

You better get busy writing to MLB about the calls that were corrected this year. They probably werenÂ’t aware that this change in accountability was a poor decision. Those games should be protested.



Once you start down the slippery slope of getting help, God only knows where it will end.

Are you afraid the earth will stop rotating? Dogs and cats living together? Equal rights for all? CÂ’mon, asking for help is not a weakness. You have a lot of rookies that read this and your message smacks of arrogance. The same character flaw that keeps our numbers low and kills our recruiting.

Windy:

No, you get a lot of umpires who think "I don't have to hustle because my partner will help me when I'm not in a great position."

--Rich

[orioles35]

Maybe it isn't a fact of life, but when I've got a potential play at 3rd and one at 1st, there really isn't a whole lot of room to move without being out of position for potential plays at one of those bases. And I sure can't predict where the throw from the shortstop is going to be, either to third or first, on target, high, low, up the baseline or wherever. I could move anywhere on or around the mound and if it's a throw causing the 1st baseman to stretch in my direction, I CAN'T SEE HIS FOOT and the separation between it and the bag. That's when I go for help.

[Rich]

Originally posted by orioles35
Maybe it isn't a fact of life, but when I've got a potential play at 3rd and one at 1st, there really isn't a whole lot of room to move without being out of position for potential plays at one of those bases. And I sure can't predict where the throw from the shortstop is going to be, either to third or first, on target, high, low, up the baseline or wherever. I could move anywhere on or around the mound and if it's a throw causing the 1st baseman to stretch in my direction, I CAN'T SEE HIS FOOT and the separation between it and the bag. That's when I go for help.

Sure you can make this call. You step up into the working area behind the mound and when F6 throws to first you take a couple of quick steps towards the 45 foot line between home and first. No way you get straightlined. Umpires get straightlined because they run straight towards a play rather than getting an angle.

Ask me for help on this play and my response would likely be, "Yup, R2 touched third." THAT is my primary job. Yours is making the call at first base. Or third base.

--Rich

[JRutledge]

Oriole,

Depending on the play, your partner is going to be over at 3rd base. How is he going to see a play at first when he is watching something else?

Peace

[orioles35]

You guys are correct, PU SHOULD BE ready for a play at 3B.

I'll try moving a bit more and see if that helps on the play at 1st.