Play at First

[gordon30307]

While doing a 16 year old fall ball game the following play occurred. I was in the B position. Ground ball to the right side pitcher tries to field it but misses. First baseman field the ball and the pitcher is covering first but approaching from a bad angle. The pitcher from my angle may or may not have tagged the edge of the base facing second ( at this point I would have been looking to my partner for help) the pitcher than clearly tags the base a "second time" this time the runner is clearly safe. The pitchers action (tagging the base a second time) told me that he initially missed the base on his first attempt I signalled safe.

The defensive coach doesn't complain but I hear him call out to the first baseman "Next time don't tag the base twice". I got that sinking feeling that something is wrong. I waited a couple of innings and I asked my partner if he got the base the first time and he said that he did.

Here's my question.

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

[Rich]

Originally posted by gordon30307
While doing a 16 year old fall ball game the following play occurred. I was in the B position. Ground ball to the right side pitcher tries to field it but misses. First baseman field the ball and the pitcher is covering first but approaching from a bad angle. The pitcher from my angle may or may not have tagged the edge of the base facing second ( at this point I would have been looking to my partner for help) the pitcher than clearly tags the base a "second time" this time the runner is clearly safe. The pitchers action (tagging the base a second time) told me that he initially missed the base on his first attempt I signalled safe.

The defensive coach doesn't complain but I hear him call out to the first baseman "Next time don't tag the base twice". I got that sinking feeling that something is wrong. I waited a couple of innings and I asked my partner if he got the base the first time and he said that he did.

Here's my question.

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

You did nothing wrong. You made the expected call. If the pitcher stabbed at the base twice, he DID miss it the first time, for the purposes of a call.

Your partner should keep his mouth shut, as he did. You should get your own calls, as you did.

You did good.

--Rich

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by gordon30307
While doing a 16 year old fall ball game the following play occurred. I was in the B position. Ground ball to the right side pitcher tries to field it but misses. First baseman field the ball and the pitcher is covering first but approaching from a bad angle. The pitcher from my angle may or may not have tagged the edge of the base facing second ( at this point I would have been looking to my partner for help) the pitcher than clearly tags the base a "second time" this time the runner is clearly safe. The pitchers action (tagging the base a second time) told me that he initially missed the base on his first attempt I signalled safe.

The defensive coach doesn't complain but I hear him call out to the first baseman "Next time don't tag the base twice". I got that sinking feeling that something is wrong. I waited a couple of innings and I asked my partner if he got the base the first time and he said that he did.

Here's my question.

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

I agree with Rich: When a fielder tags the base twice -- and the second time is late -- I teach and practice "Safe!"

You were in B, which means:

1. There was already a runner at first, in which case your partner should have been moving somewhat down the third-base line to cover a play at third if there's an error on the throw to first. In that event the PU may not be able to help even if you do look.

OR:

2. The bases were empty, and you're practicing the 21st Century Mechanics. A great many youth organizations around the country are doing that because it's so easy to teach new umpires how to do it.

So....?

[gordon30307]

There was a runner on first. Thanks, for the feefback.

[WindyCityBlue]

I'm probably the biggest proponent of "Getting the Call Right" on this board. While it is true that you made the call without your partner's assistance, something must be eating at you, if you brought the matter here.

Your partner was correct in not rendering an initial call unless asked. Asking for his assistance post call is where it gets really messy. You have to have him tell you that the call was blown. Then, you have the coach to handle. This is where I disagree with a lot of umpires. I DON’T CARE, HOW IT LOOKS.

The player made your job much easier because he double clutched the tag. It was easy to sell that call. Had he not, you know what you should have done - asked “Did he have the bag?” immediately. This is not hanging your partner, it is utilizing your resources. Proper mechanics would have you point at him and ask the question. He would respond “Yes” or “No” and you would then make the call based on his input. The same mechanic is used for swipe tags, bobbled catches or a sliding tag to the back side of the bag.

Now, I have a problem with your partner who saw an obvious error and didn’t add his input when he could. Depending on the level of play and where he was on the play, this will make both of you look like a solid team. The play ends and he calls “Time” and trots out to you away from the players and coaches. He ASKS if you saw the pitcher touch first. You say “No” and ask if he KNOWS that he didn’t. He says “Yes”, you agree that the call needs to be corrected in order to be fair. You call the runner back to first and signal “Safe - No Bag”. The defensive coach will be upset, so you back-up your partner and let him explain the call to the coach. If he does this, not as crew chief - he is reinforcing your team work and commitment to getting the call right. The coach will certainly question you and your response should be, “Coach we try to get them all right, my partner had a great angle and let me know that we had a rule violation not a change in judgement. The pitcher did not have the ball and the base before the runner, so my call was incorrect. We got it right and will do our best to work together for the rest of the game. Can we get this game going again?” Now the ball is in his court. You’ve explained your intent and acknowledged how important every play is. You are a super ump and gosh darn it, people love ya’!

I’m sure that some guys are going to say, “Windy, you would never do that in one of your games!” Sorry, but I’ve been on both sides of corrected calls several times this year. Two of them happened in conference, D-1 games and a couple at the varsity high school level. We got the calls right and never heard a peep.

Keep the faith...even the guys pulling down the big bucks screw the pooch sometimes. This time, the guy made it easy. Next time, you'll be ready!

[orioles35]

I agree. In pregame conference, I will always make sure the PU will be watching the pulled foot at 1st. If I get straight-lined by the 1st baseman where there's a chance his foot may have come off the bag, I will point to the PU for his call on the foot, then I make my call. Had one this weekend, heard some grumbling, but it was the right call.

[jumpmaster]

Windy,
I usually agree with you on the "get the call right" wagon but I have to question you on this one. When in the B/C positions, I discreatly check my partner for some sort of indication that the fielder was on/off the bag (we pre-game this). If I have no indication from my partner, the fielder tags the bag a second time, I have used my assets available to determine that the BR is safe.

If my partner comes out to offer unsolicited advice to me after I have made a call, we will have words about it. If I have a question about the accuracy of my call, I have an obligation to utilize all my available resources to get the call correct. I also have an obligation to be in the proper position to see the play. In this case Gordon did the proper thing.

Gordon - good call and I would have called the same thing.

[jicecone]

Windy, believe me, I am all for getting the call right but, once the BU made his decision based upon what he thought he saw, (instead of asking for help immeaditally), he put the lid on that turkey.

This was not a flagrant drop of the ball or miss of the tag or base, it was a bang bang close play. For his partner to come out on a play like this to say that the pitcher missed the base (or something similar), I believe causes more problems and is showing up his partner.

Should we now suggest that the BU come in and ask the PU if he clearly saw the pitch he just missed?

Again I am all behind you on getting the call right however, in this situation I have to go along with Rich.

You done good Gordon.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

I'm probably the biggest proponent of "Getting the Call Right" on this board. While it is true that you made the call without your partner's assistance, something must be eating at you, if you brought the matter here.

The player made your job much easier because he double clutched the tag. It was easy to sell that call. Had he not, you know what you should have done - asked “Did he have the bag?” immediately. This is not hanging your partner, it is utilizing your resources.

Windy IMO, this is hanging your partner out to dry and also making the ENTIRE crew look foolish.

As Papa C stated, there was a man on first. The PU at this point is watching R1 because there is a banger at first base where the BU is. Depending upon what mechanics you use, I as PU am watching R1 Touch second base so my partner doesn't have to worry about it, and also getting ready to make a possible call at third base.

Therefore, in this play if the PU is doing what he/she is supposed to, they can't help you because they have no better angle then you do and probably worse, because the PU is getting ready for a possible play at third.

Now let's do what you propose. My partner now points to me where I am probably in a worse position to see the play then him so of course I signal safe, however, the coaches and most people KNOW that I had no clue whether the runner was safe/out because of my angle. Now the entire crew looks bad and you start hearing it.

Bottom line: I think all of us who umpire strive to get the call right or we wouldn't do it. However, in a 2 person system, umpires MUST make that tough call, sell it and stick with it because your partner cannot always help you.

Pete Booth

[WindyCityBlue]

Jumpmaster,
You must have read my post wrong. In no way was I attempting to belittle him or make him feel foolish for the call. I told him that the player made the call easy for him. Then I gave him a hypothetical in which the guy doesn't double clutch the tag. I took issue with his partner, not Gordon.

I am confused, though, about what you would say to a partner that came out with unsolicited advice. What would you do?
I've made it clear that if my partner comes to me with help, I WILL LISTEN. Yes, I will try to catch a "tell" from him prior to my initial call, but failing that, I expect my partners will help me get the bad calls right. Likewise, my partners recognize that if they see me coming to them with a question, it is not for my ego or to humiliate them. (Please note: all naysayers...in my original and this post I have used the word "question". This is the best protocol for offering input...ask first, then offer.)

Gordon did not make the right call, by his own admission his partner told him so. He sold it and we've all done that on trouble calls. My advice was to be prepared in the future and know that he can do something to get the call right. I'm sure that this type of play will happen to him again. I bet the next time it does, he'll be here telling us how well it worked.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Gordon did not make the right call, by his own admission his partner told him so. He sold it and we've all done that on trouble calls. My advice was to be prepared in the future and know that he can do something to get the call right. I'm sure that this type of play will happen to him again. I bet the next time it does, he'll be here telling us how well it worked.

I'm confused: Because Gordon's partner said he got the call wrong, we know.... What?

In all this romantic BS of "let's get the call right," in a two-man crew what makes us so sure the first umpire is WRONG?

Pulled foot? Maybe it didn't come off. Dropped ball? Perhaps the fielder knocked it out illegally. In a three- or four-man crew, it's possible to "get the call right" if the other umpires agree.

I make a call, out comes the coach, and my partner agrees with the coach. So what? That just means two of them are wrong.

Thanks, guys, but I'll stick to the tried and true method. If I have a doubt, I'll ask first and call later.

Once you start down the slippery slope of getting help, God only knows where it will end.

[Peruvian]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
Gordon - good call and I would have called the same thing.

I agree. It's one thing if the fielder jabs at the base once and you're not sure. At that point, I ask my partner for help. In the situation described, since he jabbed TWICE, I call "Safe", and IF, and ONLY if the coach comes out and says, "Blue, he got it on the first try. Can you ask for help?", am I going to my partner.

The coach in this situation didn't say anything, so there was nothing to change. It didn't make a farce of the game and to me, stuff like that happens in a two man crew (we want to get it right 100% of the time, but the pitcher made it so obvious), so we have to choose our battles.

Windy, I know what your saying and I agree with part of it. But if a changed call like this was initiated by the umpires and not the coaches, then you really are asking for an ejection, and I'm not in the business of ejecting coaches. Disputed home runs, misinterpretation of rules and such where the game is being compromised...then I'm all for umpires going out to their partner and alerting them to their mistake. There are ways to do that without showing up your partner. But in this case, a judgement was made and that's just part of baseball.

[Tim C]

Hooray for Carl.

The issue in helping when not asked is "what makes you correct?"

We have all worked games when we saw our partner make a call that look "obviously wrong" from our vantage point. What makes us correct? Why did we see it better than the calling official?

Fact is we DIDN'T . . . we are influenced by our training and understanding of the game, HOWEVER, we have no other information that makes our call 'more correct' than our partner.

ONLY give help when asked and BEFORE a call is made.

First choice, move you butt and get your own calls!

Second choice, take information from the players and make the call.

Third choice, go for help THEN make your call.

The only situation where one should ask for help AFTER a call is something along the lines of a ball leaving the field for a home run or foul ball and some one else on your crew might have a different perspective.

I just love the tendy ones that want to "always get the call right."

Tee

[WindyCityBlue]

Tim C.,

The issue in helping when not asked is "what makes you correct?"

We have all worked games when we saw our partner make a call that look "obviously wrong" from our vantage point. What makes us correct? Why did we see it better than the calling official?

Because of the angle! I had a catcher head back to the screen in a major college game. We are taught to watch the player not the ball. The wind swirled and before I knew it, I was completely blocked by the catcher as he “caught” the ball. I asked to see the ball and made the signal. As my hand was going up, my first base partner and the first base coach came charging in. Uh, oh...third base partner kept both coaches at bay while my first base partner asked me if I saw it skim the screen just as he caught it. I told him I couldn’t have seen it and he agreed. We knew the call was wrong, but I had made my call. A few hundred people on the first base side knew I was wrong, too. We corrected the call and heard the boo birds and cat calls for the rest of the game. Our crew met for the pre-game of the second half of teh DH and the coach who lost the call, said that that was the right thing to do. That call happeneda few years ago and we’ve kept our schedules.




ONLY give help when asked and BEFORE a call is made.

Did you miss ALL of the call reversals in the Majors this year? We had two catches, eight home runs and several foul ball calls changed. We’ve also had MLB umpires acknowledge that they were not in the best position to make the call, so don’t tell me that by hustling, you will always be in the perfect position to make the call. There is no perfect position!




The only situation where one should ask for help AFTER a call is something along the lines of a ball leaving the field for a home run or foul ball and some one else on your crew might have a different perspective.

Did you get a good bet down on the game? Why else would you decide which calls are worth getting right and which ones aren’t? Dropped catches, trapped balls, out of play calls, those aren’t worthy of your discretion?



I just love the tendy ones that want to "always get the call right."

I just love the guys that don’t work this level of ball, telling me what they would do.
BTW, what is a “tendy one”? If you are alluding to the direction that MLB is taking in making the umpires more accountable, this is not a “trend”. The NHL and NFL have instant replay because they recognize the frailty of human judgement. MLB is just taking a different tact and asking their officials to do what they can to get the calls right. If you don’t feel the need to correct a bad call, don’t do it. That just says more about you than me.

[WindyCityBlue]

Papa C. -

I'm confused: Because Gordon's partner said he got the call wrong, we know.... What?

In all this romantic BS of "let's get the call right," in a two-man crew what makes us so sure the first umpire is WRONG?

Experience...trust...commitment...I’m not sure what confuses you here. Most post games involve honest dialogue between partners. If I ask my partner(s) what they thought of my zone and he (they) say, “Man, it was awful. You were all over tonight.”, according to your logic, I’m to dismiss it because they couldn’t see what I saw.



Pulled foot? Maybe it didn't come off. Dropped ball? Perhaps the fielder knocked it out illegally. In a three- or four-man crew, it's possible to "get the call right" if the other umpires agree.

Yes, let’s confuse the issue with hypotheticals. What if a lightning bolt shattered the ball while it was in the mitt? Did he have control of the ball? Where the ball???



I make a call, out comes the coach, and my partner agrees with the coach. So what? That just means two of them are wrong.

Is that the Papa C ego talking. Are you actually saying that you have made no mistakes on the ball field? That would be the only way that your statement would hold water.



Thanks, guys, but I'll stick to the tried and true method. If I have a doubt, I'll ask first and call later.

You better get busy writing to MLB about the calls that were corrected this year. They probably weren’t aware that this change in accountability was a poor decision. Those games should be protested.



Once you start down the slippery slope of getting help, God only knows where it will end.

Are you afraid the earth will stop rotating? Dogs and cats living together? Equal rights for all? C’mon, asking for help is not a weakness. You have a lot of rookies that read this and your message smacks of arrogance. The same character flaw that keeps our numbers low and kills our recruiting.