mental mistakes by umpires = ejections

[jicecone]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

Jicecone;

Actually, this is an indication that Gordon is doing his job. I have an average of one ejection every 8-10 games going back many years. Like Tee, I keep a log of my games. Especially if one does a lot of rec ball, the ejection count is going to be high unless one puts up with a lot of crap or works in a league where the President rules with an iron fist and severely punishes ne'er do wells.

I have umpires tell me all the time that their ejection count is low because they do preventative officiating. That works to a certain extent. However, when I review their games or work with them, the truth is that they ignore a lot of stuff that they should be dealing with. Eventually, another umpire (me) or an assignor gets to deal with it.

Peter

Hey Peter, If YOUR shoe fits YOUR foot, then by all means were it. I know where you stand on this and can care less what your feelings are about those that disagree. I keep people in the game, don't take any crap and I'm dam good at what I do. That doesn't even take in consideration how good of an umpire I am either.

So Peter please, don't preach your umpiring whatever you may call it to me because, I'm only about 150,000% positive I would out umpire your type, any day of the week. Sound Cocky,, YOU BET

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by jicecone


Hey Peter, If YOUR shoe fits YOUR foot, then by all means were it. I know where you stand on this and can care less what your feelings are about those that disagree. I keep people in the game, don't take any crap and I'm dam good at what I do. That doesn't even take in consideration how good of an umpire I am either.

So Peter please, don't preach your umpiring whatever you may call it to me because, I'm only about 150,000% positive I would out umpire your type, any day of the week. Sound Cocky,, YOU BET

That was great.

Peace

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by jicecone

Hey Peter, If YOUR shoe fits YOUR foot, then by all means were it. I know where you stand on this and can care less what your feelings are about those that disagree. I keep people in the game, don't take any crap and I'm dam good at what I do. That doesn't even take in consideration how good of an umpire I am either.

So Peter please, don't preach your umpiring whatever you may call it to me because, I'm only about 150,000% positive I would out umpire your type, any day of the week. Sound Cocky,, YOU BET

My, my, aren't we sensitive today. Defensive too, I might add.

You felt perfectly entitled to put down Gordon with a smug post for your perceived biases of his umpiring. However, when someone turns the tables and does it to you, you become all huffy.

I have trained hundreds of umpires and supervised or assigned probably 600-800 over the years. The go along and get along umpires like you have a valuable place in our organization. They form the majority of the staff and are the bread and butter of the operation. It's great for customer service.

There are just not suitable for the big time, that's all.

Jon Bible et al, can umpire with few ejections. They use their reputations to control the mob. Umpires who strictly work in season high school and conference college baseball, use the high school ADs and threat of NCAA sanctions to accomplish the same thing.

Summer ball/rec ball umpires have very little behind them other than their own skills as a diplomat or an a$$hole, depending on the situation. When I see those umpires with a low ejection count, I know that they are passing their responsibilities on to others or...

...their name is Jon Bible, Dave Yeast, Bob Gustin, or any of about 100 other umpires with a known reputation. Are you claiming that you are in that category of umpire?

Peter

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by His High Holiness


Cowboyfan;

You wrote;

"I have earned respect from coaches, players and my fellow umpires."

Ok, I can understand how you might know if you have respect from your fellow umpires, but how in the world can you know if the coaches and players respect you. Have you:

1. Installed hidden cameras in their locker rooms to listen to their conversations.

2. Commissioned an independent survey to interview coaches and players about your umpiring.

3. Regularly get calls from your assignor telling you that he got postive feedback on your game from coaches and players.

If not, then you are engaged in delusional thinking. If you believe anything that they tell you about your performance, then you are even more delusional. Have you ever heard of an umpire saying:

"The coaches and players don't respect me."

Any umpire worth his salt is convinced that the coaches and players respect them. Have you ever heard of a automobile driver saying anything other than:

"I am a better than average driver."

Not likely. We all engage in delusional thinking by saying we are better than average. Most umpires do the same thing. I seriously doubt that coaches and players have any outside respect for you personally or your indvidual performance as an umpire. By custom, the decent ones among them respect the title that you hold. That's it.

I am taking that I have their respect because this year to determine who called regional state playoffs we used rating from COACHES. I as a 3rd year varisty official was picked and ended up calling one of the 6A (our higest level) championship games. So obviously if they didn't think I could call they would not have rated me high.

If you are not having problems in your games, it is more likely due to the fear that the local leagues or Athletic Directors have put into the coaches and players. You made a very telling comment in your post when you wrote:

"...and have had to dump 2 coaches (tho a few other deserved to be)"

Why didn't you do your job and dump those coaches that you admitted deserved it?

This tells me that you are a typical average umpire who sweeps discipline problems under the rug for a$$holes like me to clean up in the next game. Consider this:

You are a police chief hiring a policeman for a job and the candidate says to you:

"I have made 2 arrests for drunk driving last year but there were a few others who deserved to be but I let go." Would you hire this guy?

I can honestly say that since I had this epiphany eight years ago that I have ejected every coach and player that deserved to be ejected and maybe a few that did not deserve to be ejected.

I want policeman to arrest every drunk driver and even some who are not drunk but might be. A judge can sort out the innocent ones from the guilty later.

Peter

By calling a good game I don't have the problems. While I have admitted I am not perfect I don't have the problems others do because it is looked at as being not the norm as far as missing things. I also treat the coaches with respect and not as rats until they prove they don't deserve it.

As far as the couple that I probably should have dumped but didn't, last time I checked I am there for the kids and I will do what I can to keep a game going. 2 of the coaches that deserved to be dump would have ended the game to a forfeit with the ejection. Maybe I am wrong for worrying about such things but in both cases the coach looked like an a$$ as opposed to me looking like I did not have control over the game. Sure it probably brought the game down a bit, but so would have a forfeit of an otherwise great game. The other I was a rookie and did not handle it properly (learning experience).

As far as your analogy about the cop and the drunk driver, I could twist it around to the father that slaps around his kid every chance he gets. Maybe the kids deserved it, maybe he did not. Who is going to sort that out? But last time I checked, this is a game and not a life and death situation that drunks or abusive parents are.

[Tim C]

"I am taking that I have their respect because this year to determine who called regional state playoffs we used rating from COACHES."

If I was the type that wanted to start a Friday "$h1thouse" I could suggest that the rats selected you because they knew you could be easily manipulated and therefore had little "respect" but were part of their plan.

Of course I am way above starting an issue like that in any thread.

Tee

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Tim C
"I am taking that I have their respect because this year to determine who called regional state playoffs we used rating from COACHES."

If I was the type that wanted to start a Friday "$h1thouse" I could suggest that the rats selected you because they knew you could be easily manipulated and therefore had little "respect" but were part of their plan.

Of course I am way above starting an issue like that in any thread.

Tee

I know you're not trying to start a sh!thouse, and neither am I.

But your logic doesn't make sense if BOTH coaches have to agree on the selection.

Let's say I'm Coach Rat1 of the McAllen Bulldogs, and for the Regional Playoffs I want Tee Chris as the umpire because I can easily manipulate him. Certainly, Coach Rat2 of the Edinburg Bobcats will know what Rat1 is planning: After all, they are both familiar with the umpire -- and each other.

There's just no getting round it: If both coaches must agree in advance on who will umpire the game, the umpires chosen are not picked because they are easily manipulated. They are picked because they are not easy to push around.

Lots of umpires, like you, are not familiar with a system where coaches select their umpires.

For five years in a row I was picked by Tony Barbosa, the coach of Brownsville Pace, three times reaching the area championship round. Coach Barbosa did not particularly like me (I umpired him when he pitched in D1), but he always figured I could keep control of the game. I learned that after he and I had both retired, so he had nothing to gain by being candid.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Tim C
"I am taking that I have their respect because this year to determine who called regional state playoffs we used rating from COACHES."

If I was the type that wanted to start a Friday "$h1thouse" I could suggest that the rats selected you because they knew you could be easily manipulated and therefore had little "respect" but were part of their plan.

Of course I am way above starting an issue like that in any thread.

Tee

Tee;

Friday s$$$houses are best started around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. This is a super Friday to start a s$$$house because Monday is a holiday.

You jumped the gun, little dog of s$$$houses. You have much to learn.

There is a certain class of coach who will never respect an umpire even if that umpire is from MLB or the CWS. Although in the minority, this kind of coach is always looking for a way to manipulate the umpire. For this type of coach, fear is the only weapon that works for the umpire. And you are correct, these types of coaches select umpires that they can best manipulate. Part of their game plan is to convince the umpire that they respect him. As usual, I have a series of articles on this subject on the paid part of the site.

Peter

[Rich]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1

I am taking that I have their respect because this year to determine who called regional state playoffs we used rating from COACHES. I as a 3rd year varisty official was picked and ended up calling one of the 6A (our higest level) championship games. So obviously if they didn't think I could call they would not have rated me high.

By calling a good game I don't have the problems. While I have admitted I am not perfect I don't have the problems others do because it is looked at as being not the norm as far as missing things. I also treat the coaches with respect and not as rats until they prove they don't deserve it.

As far as the couple that I probably should have dumped but didn't, last time I checked I am there for the kids and I will do what I can to keep a game going. 2 of the coaches that deserved to be dump would have ended the game to a forfeit with the ejection. Maybe I am wrong for worrying about such things but in both cases the coach looked like an a$$ as opposed to me looking like I did not have control over the game. Sure it probably brought the game down a bit, but so would have a forfeit of an otherwise great game. The other I was a rookie and did not handle it properly (learning experience).

As far as your analogy about the cop and the drunk driver, I could twist it around to the father that slaps around his kid every chance he gets. Maybe the kids deserved it, maybe he did not. Who is going to sort that out? But last time I checked, this is a game and not a life and death situation that drunks or abusive parents are.

Being a good umpire has nothing to do with summer baseball ejections. I worked 2 small college conferences (I'm in WI and that's as good as it gets around here) and as many HS games I wanted this year with zero ejections. This summer I was in double digits.

I am not there for the kids, to keep the game moving, blah, blah, blah. I'm there to umpire. If someone behaves in such a way that they need to leave, I'm going to stop and take care of business.

Someone who is there for the kids should realize that letting the coach behave badly is seen by those kids. If there's any message I'll get through to those kids it's that behaving in a bad way won't be tolerated.

If the coach pulls his team, that's his choice. I had a coach threaten that this summer after I ran him. I told him it was, as always, up to him. A parent stepped in and told the coach to get lost.

--Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Sep 3rd, 2004 at 09:43 AM]

[Tim C]

"But your logic doesn't make sense if BOTH coaches have to agree on the selection."

Not true old wise one, both rats, INDEPENDANT of each other, could think that they could manipulate the umpire. EACH rat could think that "he" has the personal relationship with the umpire.

"Lots of umpires, like you, are not familiar with a system where coaches select their umpires."

Carl please research before typing:

I am very aware of this system (while I do not umpire in Texas were the only real baseball is played) as it was in place for many decades in my little corner of the US.

In fact, I was selected by both teams in the American Legion final one year. Did I think it was because I was such a great umpire? AT THE TIME I DID -- but in reality it was simply because each rat knew exactly what he would get from me . . . each, I am sure, had their own subtle way of extracting an advantage from me.

Now comes my lament:

I have posted for YEARS that I averaged about an ejection once every ten games during my first 3,100 games. The number was pretty consistent.

Over the last FIVE season I have had ONE ejection.

I don't even have rats come out to argue any more . . . I miss that.

Am I a better umpire? I don't think so. Part of the change is that during my high school season there are strong financial penalties to schools for ejections. As documentation our local group worked more games this past school season and had the fewest number of ejections in the last 10 years.

As with Rich during the summer thngs change. I am lucky that I draw games during the summer that involve pretty much the contenders (also these are teams that even during the summer are coached by the high school coach).

I have seen terrible rat behavior in games I do not work and therefore more ejections durig summer ball.

Carl, I really made my post in jest and hope that our readers recognize that.

Tee

[David B]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

I know you're not trying to start a sh!thouse, and neither am I.

But your logic doesn't make sense if BOTH coaches have to agree on the selection.

Let's say I'm Coach Rat1 of the McAllen Bulldogs, and for the Regional Playoffs I want Tee Chris as the umpire because I can easily manipulate him. Certainly, Coach Rat2 of the Edinburg Bobcats will know what Rat1 is planning: After all, they are both familiar with the umpire -- and each other.

There's just no getting round it: If both coaches must agree in advance on who will umpire the game, the umpires chosen are not picked because they are easily manipulated. They are picked because they are not easy to push around.

Lots of umpires, like you, are not familiar with a system where coaches select their umpires.

For five years in a row I was picked by Tony Barbosa, the coach of Brownsville Pace, three times reaching the area championship round. Coach Barbosa did not particularly like me (I umpired him when he pitched in D1), but he always figured I could keep control of the game. I learned that after he and I had both retired, so he had nothing to gain by being candid.

Having called in TX for 10 years I know exactly what Carl is talking about and it IS a pretty good sign when two coaches can agree on an umpire because they all know each other very well.

Actually, my favorite story was the year that the veteran coach from Arlington High was a known problem and I had to eject him early in the season because he crossed the line.

I had another of his games and he wouldn't even speak to me later in the season.

Come state playoffs and guess who picks me to call his game. Of course the other coach had to agree.

During the contest I have a tough call on a steal at second. Coach comes out and everyone is expecting a big bruhah as he usually does.

His comment, "that's why I picked you for this game, I knew you'd make the tough call no matter what."
He walks back to his dugout and we continue.

Respect goes both ways.

Thanks
David

[Sal Giaco]

I am new to this forum but having coaches pick umpires sounds a little scary to me. In my association, we have four evaluations submitted for every conference weekend from:

1. Crew Chief
2. Home School
3. Away School
4. Independent Evaluator

Ofcourse the experience/knowlwdge level of each evaluator (as well as the view point) can vary. However, the Supervisor of Officials considers the source when reading the written reports and between the four of them, can decifer how well the officating was for that particular weekend.

There's no doubt that coaches may have their own motives in mind when selecting umpires (some crew chiefs may also have their own motives in mind when writting evaluations) but the bottom line is the Supervisor of Officials is the one who should ultimately decide what umpires are assisgned to what games.

Part of the problem with coaches/schools deciding umpires is "Black Balling" or "Red Lining". In the past, if a coach had a problem with an umpire, he would not allow that official to work for that school. Thanks to our Supervisor, that practice has been eliminated and schools no longer have that power.

Bottom line, find a honest, fair individual with great people skills to represent your organization and have that person assign umpires, not coaches. Just my opinion

[jicecone]

My, my, aren't we sensitive today. Defensive too, I might add.

You felt perfectly entitled to put down Gordon with a smug post for your perceived biases of his umpiring. However, when someone turns the tables and does it to you, you become all huffy.

I have trained hundreds of umpires and supervised or assigned probably 600-800 over the years. The go along and get along umpires like you have a valuable place in our organization. They form the majority of the staff and are the bread and butter of the operation. It's great for customer service.

There are just not suitable for the big time, that's all.

Jon Bible et al, can umpire with few ejections. They use their reputations to control the mob. Umpires who strictly work in season high school and conference college baseball, use the high school ADs and threat of NCAA sanctions to accomplish the same thing.

Summer ball/rec ball umpires have very little behind them other than their own skills as a diplomat or an a$$hole, depending on the situation. When I see those umpires with a low ejection count, I know that they are passing their responsibilities on to others or...

...their name is Jon Bible, Dave Yeast, Bob Gustin, or any of about 100 other umpires with a known reputation. Are you claiming that you are in that category of umpire?

Peter

Sensitive? Defensive? Smug? Biases? Hmmmmmm?? I was actually trying to introduce the gentlemen to a more humane approach to officiating.

Peter, I have no intention or time for a debate here, because I really have trouble believing that someone with your experience, just doesn't know better. And if that is true, then agreeing that we disagree may be the extent of our discussion.

I don't work in customer service, I don't put up with crap in my games, and I don't need to throw people out. If that puts me into your top 100 group, thank you. Lets see here,
Bible, Yeast, Gustin, Annaccone, Yea! I guess it does have a certain ring to it, doesn't it?

Have a good day.

[chris s]

I just read the original post. Just moved into nice new home.....finally got internet up and running.....SO, all I have to say is.....Do Not Fu&& up!! If a skippy wants to *****, hear him out(reasonably) then scoot him away.

I have screwed calls in my "younger years", been honest enough(sometimes) to tell skippy, "hey, I fu%%ed up"

Carl is correct in his ol saying, that ejections are usually caused by umps screw ups.........avoid it.

[Rich]

Originally posted by chris s
I just read the original post. Just moved into nice new home.....finally got internet up and running.....SO, all I have to say is.....Do Not Fu&& up!! If a skippy wants to *****, hear him out(reasonably) then scoot him away.

I have screwed calls in my "younger years", been honest enough(sometimes) to tell skippy, "hey, I fu%%ed up"

Carl is correct in his ol saying, that ejections are usually caused by umps screw ups.........avoid it.

I had 10 ejections this summer and in my heart I got every one of the calls that led to those ejections correct.

Rats see the games with team colors. I can't control that, but I can control them.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
I had an in depth discussion with one of the umpires in our association today regarding ejections.

This was his premise -
In amatuer baseball, mental mistakes by the umpire result in more ejections than player/coach snafus. i.e. An umpire makes a bang, bang call - in amatuer ball - he will probably get the call wrong. An umpire's gross miss on a pitch will bring the coach out to argue, resulting in an ejection. Granted things like BR dropping a shoulder into F3 to break up a play will also result in ejections, but these are the exception rather than the rule.

I think most umpires I know have greater patience with a complaining coach if they are uncertain of their call. If they have greater certainty of their call, they'll listen to the coach's complaint, then explain what they saw, why they called what they did, accept a reasonable disagreement, and then tell the coach the game is ready to proceed. Any further "argument" or unreasonable comment may be cause for warning or ejection.

I disagree with Peter in using quick ejections, but wouldn't disagree with quick warnings. I like to think I wouldn't eject without warning unless the participant's action was flagrant, and therefore, an obviously justifiable ejection. I also think that there are too many marshmallows out there that endure too much continued sniping regarding past decisions without putting a stop to it.

Like Rich, I incur significant ej's in summer ball where all the players want to be the coaches. I've called HS ball since 1980 and have had only one EJ, and can recall only one instance where I likely should have dumped but didn't (he asked me if I could spell "scratch" to which I replied "not in this game, I can't"---end of that converstation).

Regarding the coachs' selection of playoff officials.......
I believe much has to do with who the association shows to the teams during the season, who the association best promotes (which they do), and who the association partners you with----all of which is certainly impacted by the buddy system within the organization. I totally agree with Peter that there are many fine officials not selected for playoffs, and add that many of those not selected may indeed be better than those that have been promoted by the association through their regular season assignments. I've also seen many not so fine officials---including homers---as accepted by the coaches involved in the contest.

To Sal I'd say......I'd enjoy calling with ya.......
And to David B. I'd say......I enjoyed calling with you at Arlington High although I doubt if you recall it....


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