dead ball balk?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Foulball

Wow...pretty rude. I hope you don't treat your family like this. My point was from a practical standpoint. Lot's of times I see the ball is never even put in play, and play resumes. I want to get this right too, but governing the game by the "letter of law" rather then the "spirit of rule" is un-practical at times. Common sense says that deception by a pitcher is punishable by a "BALK".....for all practical purposes....when the umpire calls "play" it is live ball regardless of whether the pitcher has the ball, or is even on the rubber. However I do concede to the techinal ruling. In the meantime Tee........take a pill.

Technical ruling? TECHNICAL RULING? TECHNICAL RULING????

Just so I have this straight, you are saying that you would ignore the rules and call and enforce a balk during a deadball situation because you think it is the practical thing to do?

So then it is practical to ignore a deadball? How about if the pitcher throws and picks-off a runner during a deadball. Do we ignore the rules on that, too? I mean, we know his intent, don't we?

Or, how about letting the runner from third score during a deadball?

Or........

Sorry, but the rules regarding live and dead ball situations and putting the ball in play are more than mere technicalities. If you're looking for a rule to ignore, you should look elswhere.

[Rich]

Originally posted by GarthB

Technical ruling? TECHNICAL RULING? TECHNICAL RULING????

Just so I have this straight, you are saying that you would ignore the rules and call and enforce a balk during a deadball situation because you think it is the practical thing to do?

So then it is practical to ignore a deadball? How about if the pitcher throws and picks-off a runner during a deadball. Do we ignore the rules on that, too? I mean, we know his intent, don't we?

Or, how about letting the runner from third score during a deadball?

Or........

Sorry, but the rules regarding live and dead ball situations and putting the ball in play are more than mere technicalities. If you're looking for a rule to ignore, you should look elswhere.

Exactly. You can't make a dead ball live unless the pitcher has it on the mound. You calling a dead ball LIVE doesn't necessarily make it so.

Now, if the ball is ALREADY live, great, call a balk. But if it's not, have the stones to admit you made a mistake and move on.

--Rich

[teacherspit]

Well,
If the ball is dead, then the defense has done nothing other than delay the game. So I feel a warning is in order here. Tell them to get the dead ball to the pitcher as quickly as posible. And since balls or strikes can't be awarded. Ejection is the rule.

[Tim C]

Foulball:

Please, give me a break.

It is not a balk, you can't sell it to any of the authoritive opinons on this site.

Some people aren't worth the time. You are one.

Anyway, I didn't know they had leading off in Little League.

Tee

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by teacherspit
Well,
If the ball is dead, then the defense has done nothing other than delay the game. So I feel a warning is in order here. Tell them to get the dead ball to the pitcher as quickly as posible. And since balls or strikes can't be awarded. Ejection is the rule.

"Ejection is the rule"??

WHAT RULE?!!?

Warning = "Don't do that!" ?? Sure. But what in the #@!! are you going to eject them for? Making you feel like a bozo for calling "play" w/o knowing where the ball was?

Rich is right: have the stones to acknowledge YOUR error, get the ball into F1, "Play ball".

[Rich]

Originally posted by teacherspit
Well,
If the ball is dead, then the defense has done nothing other than delay the game. So I feel a warning is in order here. Tell them to get the dead ball to the pitcher as quickly as posible. And since balls or strikes can't be awarded. Ejection is the rule.

Oh, please. You are giving over-officiousness a name here. Warn them for what? Tell them they can't do that with a dead ball and move on. Nothing to get excited for, nothing to warn, certainly nothing to eject for.

[teacherspit]

At some point the game has to go on. And if one allows the game to be delayed again and again, then control of the game is lost.
It's real simple lets play ball. And if they refuse then what. Dead ball, can't award a ball. The game has to continue.

Keep the game flowing. Don't tell me that an umpire is not in control of the flow of the game.
There is a rule that the pitcher has 20 secs to get the ball and make a pitch. Well he can't do it if he does not have the ball. So what. let's wait until they play their little hidden ball trick or other "DEADBALL" deceptive tricks that has nothing to do with the spirit of the game. I am not going to allow it.

I haven't ejected anyone, other than mandatory, 'malicious contact', in I don't know how long. I'm not looking to eject anyone.
But if I give a legal instruction and someone or team refuse to obey. I have no other recourse than ejection or forfeit.

If I saw a team trying to do a hidden ball after a dead ball I would tell the fielder to get the ball back to the pitcher. If he refuses I would inform the coach to inform his player to get the ball back to the pitcher. If he still refuses then there is no recourse other than ejection or forfeit. Unless you have another. Which I will entertain..

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by teacherspit
I'm not looking to eject anyone.
But if I give a legal instruction and someone or team refuse to obey. I have no other recourse than ejection or forfeit.

If I saw a team trying to do a hidden ball after a dead ball I would tell the fielder to get the ball back to the pitcher. If he refuses I would inform the coach to inform his player to get the ball back to the pitcher. If he still refuses then there is no recourse other than ejection or forfeit. Unless you have another. Which I will entertain..

You are not serious?

Let's see:

U: Ball's dead, guys, get it into F1, OK?
Fielder: Nah, Blue, I'm gonna hold it here, so's I can do the HBT on this here runner and steal an out after you say play, even though the pitcher ain't got the ball. . .

Yeah, like that will ever happen and FORCE you to eject somebody.

Slowly, now:

IF you screw up and signal "Play" with F1 on the rubber minus the ball; and
IF some genius on the defense has set this up to try the HBT [because they are even dumber than you, and don't know about the ball not being legally in play until F1 has it on the rubber OR about the balk this causes if the ball had remained live]; and
IF the said grinning cretin produces the ball after you say "Play" and "tags" a runner;

"U: TIME, ball is still dead!
Runner, back to your base!
YOU [pointing to G.Cretin]- get the ball to Pitcher!
[Pointing to F1]- DON'T DO THAT.
OK? Play!"

WARNING [as in "If that happens again, somebody is ejected"]?: NEVER
EJECTION?: Oh, please! Get a grip.

Crap from anybody?: Not bloody likely.

[teacherspit]

Originally posted by cbfoulds

You are not serious?

Let's see:

U: Ball's dead, guys, get it into F1, OK?
Fielder: Nah, Blue, I'm gonna hold it here, so's I can do the HBT on this here runner and steal an out after you say play, even though the pitcher ain't got the ball. . .

Yeah, like that will ever happen and FORCE you to eject somebody.

Slowly, now:

IF you screw up and signal "Play" with F1 on the rubber minus the ball; and
IF some genius on the defense has set this up to try the HBT [because they are even dumber than you, and don't know about the ball not being legally in play until F1 has it on the rubber OR about the balk this causes if the ball had remained live]; and
IF the said grinning cretin produces the ball after you say "Play" and "tags" a runner;

"U: TIME, ball is still dead!
Runner, back to your base!
YOU [pointing to G.Cretin]- get the ball to Pitcher!
[Pointing to F1]- DON'T DO THAT.
OK? Play!"

WARNING [as in "If that happens again, somebody is ejected"]?: NEVER
EJECTION?: Oh, please! Get a grip.

Crap from anybody?: Not bloody likely.

What if I don't screw up. Tell the player to get the ball back to the pitcher and he refuses?

You make it out like that, refusal to obey instructions, never happens so there need not be a rule for getting the game back in progress.
I have a grip.

What if he said. "Blue you know that ump behind the plate?" I say "you mean cbfoulds?" "Yeah him, how in the hell do you ump with him?" I say , "Well I don't really, he has everything under control, I'm just out here to fullfill a slot".
You know a person can "what if" everything that is written here. And start a bunch of crap.
People have oppinions, just because you don't agree doesn't mean you have to bash them or try to make them out to be a fool.
Like I have posted before here.
Some of those here that choose to nickpick at everything posted here. And then have some Smarta$$ remark to say about it. Are probally the worst umps that ever stepped on a field.
They say one thing here, but probally ump an entirely different way.
I worked with inmates for approximately 15 yrs. I had to know human nature to make it. And one thing that I learned was that those that always publicly pointed out preceived fault of fallacy of others were not to be trusted. They usually where back stabing liars.

A man asked a simple question. Or described a situation. Several persons gave their oppinion. But as usual their opinions required a thrashing by words from the same small group of players here who try to control every aspect of this site.

Since I have been reading and posting here. I have learned that I have made mistakes in my interpretation of the rules.
I learned that a pitcher does not have to be off the rubber to make an appeal.
I cannot charge a coach a trip when he yells from the dugout for his pitcher to back off the rubber so he can converse with him.
I also have learned that no matter what I write that someone here will find a way to turn it around to fit their need to confront or make fun of me.

That's cool. Because I am a fool for even responding to those who choose to point out my umpiring deficiencies in a most unprofessional mater.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Foulball
Common sense says that deception by a pitcher is punishable by a "BALK".....

Then how is any runner ever picked off?

"Deception" is not a balk; "Illegal deception" is.

What was described in the play is not "illegal deception".

[Tim C]

"What if I don't screw up. Tell the player to get the ball back to the pitcher and he refuses?

"You make it out like that, refusal to obey instructions, never happens so there need not be a rule for getting the game back in progress.
I have a grip.

"What if he said. "Blue you know that ump behind the plate?" I say "you mean cbfoulds?" "Yeah him, how in the hell do you ump with him?" I say , "Well I don't really, he has everything under control, I'm just out here to fullfill a slot".
"You know a person can "what if" everything that is written here. And start a bunch of crap.
People have oppinions, just because you don't agree doesn't mean you have to bash them or try to make them out to be a fool.
"Like I have posted before here.
Some of those here that choose to nickpick at everything posted here. And then have some Smarta$$ remark to say about it. Are probally the worst umps that ever stepped on a field.
"They say one thing here, but probally ump an entirely different way.
"I worked with inmates for approximately 15 yrs. I had to know human nature to make it. And one thing that I learned was that those that always publicly pointed out preceived fault of fallacy of others were not to be trusted. They usually where back stabing liars.

"A man asked a simple question. Or described a situation. Several persons gave their oppinion. But as usual their opinions required a thrashing by words from the same small group of players here who try to control every aspect of this site.

"Since I have been reading and posting here. I have learned that I have made mistakes in my interpretation of the rules.
I learned that a pitcher does not have to be off the rubber to make an appeal.
"I cannot charge a coach a trip when he yells from the dugout for his pitcher to back off the rubber so he can converse with him.
"I also have learned that no matter what I write that someone here will find a way to turn it around to fit their need to confront or make fun of me.

"That's cool. Because I am a fool for even responding to those who choose to point out my umpiring deficiencies in a most unprofessional mater."

***********

This ties for the dumbest post ever made on the interent.

Tee

[umpduck11]

teacherspit...

Rule 8.04(OBR)says:"When bases are UNOCCUPIED,the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 20 seconds after he receives the ball.
What does this rule have to do with the situation I described?

[jicecone]

OK OK OK

Tell him once. If he doen't comply, do a soccer ref number on him. (Shoot Him)

If the Team refuses to have his body off the field in 3 minutes, Shoot them.

Then while your at it, shoot everyone else and as your leaving the field blowing the smoke off the barrel, say to youself,"yep, I done controlled that game"

YA HOOOO

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by teacherspit
"What if I don't screw up. Tell the player to get the ball back to the pitcher and he refuses?

"You make it out like that, refusal to obey instructions, never happens so there need not be a rule for getting the game back in progress.
I have a grip.

NO, I made it out that THIS particular "refusal" will never happen, thus your "need" to eject somebody to "get the game back in progress" will never happen.

"You know a person can "what if" everything that is written here. And start a bunch of crap.
People have oppinions, just because you don't agree doesn't mean you have to bash them or try to make them out to be a fool.
"Like I have posted before here.
Some of those here that choose to nickpick at everything posted here. And then have some Smarta$$ remark to say about it.

I might think more of this point, were it not for the fact that it was YOU, t-s-, who came up with the "what if" post. And it is not "nitpicking" to inquire exactly what rule you are claiming supports your opinion. YOU posted "Ejection is the rule" in this situation. I called you out on WHAT RULE IS THAT? I am still waiting for an answer.

"A man asked a simple question. Or described a situation. Several persons gave their oppinion. But as usual their opinions required a thrashing by words from the same small group of players here who try to control every aspect of this site.

Yes, he did: go back and read it. In the actual play, the umpires realized that there could not be a dead-ball balk in this situation: the question asked was "Did we do the right thing?"

The question was answered, with reasons, by several upper-level umpires: "Yes, you did the right thing". Then a coluple of knuckleheads [incl. you] chimed in to argue that there should be a balk in this situation. No "thrashing" took place until the knuckleheads persisted in arguing their view, despite being unable to cite any actual rule, and despite having the correct rule(s) cited to them chapter and verse.
Then you opened the "ejection" line of argument, and again, several folks pointed out that you were off base; at which point you offered your "What if they don't do what I tell them?" justification. That was just silly, and I don't feel at all meanspirited for pointing that out.

"Since I have been reading and posting here. I have learned that I have made mistakes in my interpretation of the rules.
I learned that a pitcher does not have to be off the rubber to make an appeal.
"I cannot charge a coach a trip when he yells from the dugout for his pitcher to back off the rubber so he can converse with him.
"I also have learned that no matter what I write that someone here will find a way to turn it around to fit their need to confront or make fun of me.

t-s-, you have been "confronted" a couple of times for arguing those (and similar) incorrect positions, and each time, you have been asked to cite the "rule" you claim supports your decision. Except for incorrect reliance on 9.01(c), you usually fail to respond, except by making even wilder, unsupported and unsupportable "rulings" [going from supporting a dead-ball "balk" to ejecting someone for trying the HBT on a dead ball, for example].

This makes it hard to take you seriously.

"That's cool. Because I am a fool for even responding to those who choose to point out my umpiring deficiencies in a most unprofessional mater."

Not all opinions are of equal value. When you persist in arguing against the "black letter law" of the rule book and the authoritative opinion of more knowledgeable people, your "contribution" is devalued by your acts. In every case that I have been involved in, your "deficiencies" were identified and correction offered in a reasonably "professional" manner. You refused to accept correction, and thereby opened yourself to less gentle treatment.

You remind me of a fellow in my Assn [hell, for all I know, you could be him]-

Fellow calls a balk; gets told by his very senior partner [NOT me] that it is not a balk - argues, refuses to "accept correction". After game, is shown in black and white IN THE RULE BOOK that what he called IS NOT A BALK. His response? [I SWEAR I am not making this up]: "The book is wrong!"

It is hard not to ridicule folks like that.

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

That would involve opening and reading.

Rich - don't go there. You have no idea how much time I spend in the rule book. But since you brought it up, as it is now August, I haven't looked at a FED rulebook since May. However, I have spent about 30 minutes a day in my OBR rule book this summer. During the FED season, I do the same in my FED rulebook. I will pull out my FED book tonight and post my answer. If I am wrong - I will eat crow.

As for this whole balk/no balk conversation - I pulled this info off the J/R website - http://www.rulesofbaseball.com/versions.html

“It is a balk if a pitcher does not have the ball but assists in a try to deceive a runner by


being on or astride the rubber, [8.05 Approved Ruling-a]
feigning a pitching position or pitch [8.05i], or
putting the rosin bag in his glove to make it appear he has the ball.

This is known as the ‘hidden ball trick.’ It is not necessarily a balk if a pitcher in this situation is on the dirt of the mound. [NFHS 6-2-5] [NCAA 9-3f]”

From
The Rules of Professional Baseball
By Jaksa and Roder


The NFHS and NCAA rule references indicate that it may be a balk if a pitcher is on the dirt of the mound during the hidden ball trick in a high school or NCAA game. Here are the NFHS and NCAA rule differences that you would find in the appendix:


NFHS 6-2-5 requires a balk if the pitcher is within 5 feet of the pitching rubber without the ball.
NCAA 9-3f requires a balk if the pitcher steps onto the dirt of the pitching mound without the ball.