dead ball balk?

[Tim C]

I will close with the following:

It is obvious to me DG, that you do not understand the first rule of umpiring:

"Keep your eye on the ball!"

I will let your entire body of works speak for your ability as an umpire.

Tee

[my3sons]

This would have been an oppotunity for you to practice preventitive umpireing. If you as the base umpire know that the pitcher does not have the ball as he starts back to the mound. Why not just tell the 3rd baseman to throw the ball to the pitcher. It might save a problem before it begins. The plate umpire may not see that the pitcher doesn't have the ball, so why not help him out. Work as a team, not as individuals

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by my3sons
This would have been an oppotunity for you to practice preventitive umpireing. If you as the base umpire know that the pitcher does not have the ball as he starts back to the mound. Why not just tell the 3rd baseman to throw the ball to the pitcher. It might save a problem before it begins. The plate umpire may not see that the pitcher doesn't have the ball, so why not help him out. Work as a team, not as individuals

Exactly.

As plate umpire it is POSSIBLE I might not know where the ball got to [sweeping the plate, etc], but I expect that my base umpire WILL know. If he is still staring at the vicinity of 3B, I am likely to take a look down there and notice the fielder trying to look innocent while waiting for me to call "play". At which point [the ball being dead], I am likely to ask for the ball to "examine" it, ending the charade.

If I am the base umpire, no way is a "hidden ball trick" going to catch me by suprise. I will keep my eye fixed on whoever has the ball. BTW, I have found that this tends to put the kabosh on the few attempted HBT's I've witnessed, since most base coaches seem to pick up on the fact that F1 is not on the rubber, & the base umpire is STILL watching one of the bases like a hawk, thus they don't let the runner step off the base. Eventually, everyone tires of waiting for the runner to get stupid, and we go back to playing baseball.

On the play submitted, it's umpire error, and correctable, but not by announcing BALK. If it happens [U1 calls "Play" & someone other than F1 produces the ball & "tags out" a runner]:

TIME!
Runner is NOT out, ball was not legally made live ['cause F1 didn't have it on the rubber].
YOU [fielder w/ ball] - throw the ball to F1.
YOU [F1] - DON'T DO THAT AGAIN.
Play.


[Edited by cbfoulds on Jul 30th, 2004 at 02:36 PM]

[DG]

Originally posted by Tim C
I will close with the following:

It is obvious to me DG, that you do not understand the first rule of umpiring:

"Keep your eye on the ball!"

I will let your entire body of works speak for your ability as an umpire.

Tee

I come here to learn and on occasion, to help others. I don't come here to be obnoxious, and constantly belittle others. That is apparently not the case for you. That seems to be your prime motivation to come on here and belittle others. Your body of comments speaks for itself. You can not imagine how very little I care what you think of me and my umpiring abilities. I am quite confident in my abilities, and I often take the little things I learn here and become better for it. You are obviously not learning anything here, you know it all, and you are just here to belittle others. It's a sad existence. You went away for awhile, and came back with shorter commentary, but you are still obnoxious. You have been and will continue to be, irrelevant to me.

[JJ]

Boys, boys! Yep, the idea is at least one umpire should know who has the ball, then if the hidden ball trick is tried (or any other kind of dead ball "pickoff", for that matter) the "knowing" umpire can step up and say, "The ball's still dead". No real need to get excited making that call - just point it out matter-of-factly. If a team wants to make a fuss after that, it speaks volumes about THEIR knowledge of when a balk can be called. Oh, eye contact with your partner is a very valuable tool and cannot be stressed enough.

[Tim C]

DG says: " . . . to help others"

I actually am waiting for that to happen.

Tee

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

Situation:

FED district tournament championship. Bottom of 8th, score is tied, R3, R1. Time is out while F3 and F1 confer. F3 ends up with the ball as F1 gets on the mound. The NCAA D1 umpire wannabe behind the plate calls play as R1 steps off of first. F3 puts the tag on him and U1 calls a balk. After a conference, the balk stands, scoring the winning run and the umpires go home amid a s$$$house.

Since there are no protests in VA Fed ball, the play was allowed to stand. The umpires involved have a permanent black mark against their careers and have not advanced one iota since then. I doubt that they ever will.

At our next association meeting, the wannabe D1 ump was forced to get up and explain that the rules forbid the ball to be put in play unless the pitcher is on the mound WITH the ball. Then he had to explain that there can be no balk without a live ball.

Peter [/B]

I don't have my FED rule book with me, but I believe the HBT is an ejection in FED baseball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

I don't have my FED rule book with me, but I believe the HBT is an ejection in FED baseball.

When you get your rules book, please provide a reference.

Thanks.

[DG]

Originally posted by Tim C
DG says: " . . . to help others"

I actually am waiting for that to happen.

Tee

I think I have, on occassion, helped others. I don't know what your problem is, but I don't want any of it on my shoes.

[Edited by DG on Jul 30th, 2004 at 04:56 PM]

[Foulball]

Originally posted by DG

I don't know he has the ball or not when I say "play". His intent is clear.

I agree.......F1's attempt is clearly deceptive not only to the base runner, but the umpires as well. This is punishable by........"THAT'S A BALK!" and make it stick...sell it......it's a balk!

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Foulball

I agree.......F1's attempt is clearly deceptive not only to the base runner, but the umpires as well. This is punishable by........"THAT'S A BALK!" and make it stick...sell it......it's a balk!

I agree that it was an illegal attempt to decieve the runner, and that is a balk. But you have to remember that the ball was dead. Even thought the umpire said play, the ball is still dead. He was confused of the location of the ball, amd was mistaken in putting the ball in play.

If you allow this play to happen when the ball is dead, then where do you stop. Do you allow the batter to take second base after he was hit by the pitch?

[Atl Blue]

I agree.......F1's attempt is clearly deceptive not only to the base runner, but the umpires as well. This is punishable by........"THAT'S A BALK!" and make it stick...sell it......it's a balk!

Balk during a dead ball. Right. Great call! That one will take you far.

If I'm the coach, "PROTEST"! The committee will laugh you off the field.

How simple can this be? The ball is DEAD! Even if the umpire says "play", it's STILL dead. I can understand the umps occassionally getting fooled on where the ball is, especially if F5 and F1 were very good in their sleight of hand. OK, it's not good, but it could happen to the best umps.

But once you mistakenly call, "play", realize what happened, fix YOUR mistake, put the runner back and tell the defense to knock it off. Get them for delaying the game if you want to, but it is NOT a balk for taking the rubber without the ball. The play was DEAD!

[Tim C]

"I agree.......F1's attempt is clearly deceptive not only to the base runner, but the umpires as well. This is punishable by........"THAT'S A BALK!" and make it stick...sell it......it's a balk!"

Please foulball, just show me anyhwere in any rule book where a balk can be called after a dead ball and before it is legally made live. Pretty simple request I would think.

Your statement just proves that some people are untrainable.

Sometimes even the internet amazes me.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Jul 31st, 2004 at 01:09 PM]

[Rich]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

When you get your rules book, please provide a reference.

Thanks.

That would involve opening and reading.

[Foulball]

Originally posted by Tim C
"I agree.......F1's attempt is clearly deceptive not only to the base runner, but the umpires as well. This is punishable by........"THAT'S A BALK!" and make it stick...sell it......it's a balk!"

Please foulball, just show me anyhwere in any rule book where a balk can be called after a dead ball and before it is legally made live. Pretty simple request I would think.

Your statement just proves that some people are untrainable.

Sometimes even the internet amazes me.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Jul 31st, 2004 at 01:09 PM]

Wow...pretty rude. I hope you don't treat your family like this. My point was from a practical standpoint. Lot's of times I see the ball is never even put in play, and play resumes. I want to get this right too, but governing the game by the "letter of law" rather then the "spirit of rule" is un-practical at times. Common sense says that deception by a pitcher is punishable by a "BALK".....for all practical purposes....when the umpire calls "play" it is live ball regardless of whether the pitcher has the ball, or is even on the rubber. However I do concede to the techinal ruling. In the meantime Tee........take a pill.