Steppin on toes

[chris s]

My boss told me this today when I asked him how the umps were for his kids game on sat. R1, pick play. BU calls safe on close play. D manager asks PU for "appeal", PU bangs kid out. My boss tells me he went off, from the stands(I woulda loved to seen that), he refs football with us and also has managed PONY all-star teams, so he knows what is up!

Aside from a pre-game to eliminate this, what would you guys do to the PU, and when??? I'll tell ya what did happen after I see some input

[jicecone]

When I was UIC of a LL, which I am assuming is what we are talking about here , and I heard of a situation like this I would call the umpire up after the game and ask what happen. Most of the time it was a totally different story from what the coach complained about. Then if I felt improper mechanics were used I would explain it to the umpire how to handle it the next time and why. End of situation.

If your boss that is an official, can't understand that Brinkman, West and Childress were busy that day and couldn't handle his sons game, then its a personal problem.

[ozzy6900]

First off, if you need help to make a call, get it before you make the call. Once the call is made, you and everyone else has to live with it.

Now as the PU, if my partner makes a call without asking for help then a manager wants to appeal to me, I tell the manager to go to the umpire that made the call for a discussion/appeal. If my partner (after the manager pleads his case) comes to me, I turn my back and walk the other way. Why? Because in the pre-game, my partner and I discuss how this is to be worked. As the PU, I am always watching his back and I use 2 simple hand signals (palm flat out for safe or fist clenched for out). On a tough call I will emphatically say "good call!" to let the "by-standers" know that I am agreeing with my partner.

I'm not being an S.O.B. about this, I just can't stand an umpire that is indecisive and can't stand up for himself when he makes a call. Again, if you need help on the call, your delay mechanics should allow you to get the help before you make that call. After that, it's in the past.

[mcrowder]

I think most of us would agree with that, or at least some form of that, Mario.

The question is -- how to handle the PU's poor overcall, and when.

If I was their UIC or scheduler and this was brought to my attention, I'd call the umps to find out their side - if they agree with the circumstances, PU and I would have a long long talk, and I'd likely remind ALL of the umpires the proper mechanics and communication techniques in a sitch like this at our next meeting.

Our personal mechanic on this is that if manager appeals to PU they are ignored or at best directed to discuss it with BU. If BU, after discussion, needs to discuss with PU, the only thing we would EVER overrule on is a pulled foot or bobble that was hidden from view of the BU.

With some of the younger BU's (we have the occasional older teenager), we teach them to come to PU if it's just getting too hot for them. When they reach PU they just say "Back me up" and PU will make the safe or out call to agree with BU. If they say something else we'll discuss it (again - could be the pulled foot or bobble).

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by mcrowder
The question is -- how to handle the PU's poor overcall, and when.
[/B]

Sorry, I lost myself on the last post. Now that I found myself, this shouldn't happen with a good pre-game (which requires that both umpires arive a minimum of 30 minutes before the game).

If the incident still occurs as in the origional post, you can bet your life that there will be one heck of a post game meeting well away from anyone else. On the field, I would say nothing as he is still my partner. I'm not holding him in very high esteem right now but he is still my partner. I guess if he really ticked me off, I might call down to him on the next play @1st "what's your call on that one?". Nawww, that would be too easy! I'll make him suffer through a post game then make him buy coffee!

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by jicecone
When I was UIC of a LL, which I am assuming is what we are talking about here , and I heard of a situation like this I would call the umpire up after the game and ask what happen. Most of the time it was a totally different story from what the coach complained about.

For years as an assignor, I found this to be the case. The version of events that I got from coaches and fans bore no resemblence to what the umpires reported. I would bet that Chris's boss has a totally different version of what happened than what the umpires reported back to their assignor. The umpires' version could have been something along the following lines:

The BU did not see the play or was very unsure about the call. He would blame this on someone stepping in front of him at the last minute. (He will rarely say that he was in the wrong place.) He may have signaled or asked the PU to change the call. The PU, having clearly seen the play, obliged his partner's request. Rather than being angry at his partner, the BU is happy that the PU saved him from a bad call.

Over on the paid part of this site, Rich Ives tells a story about a totally incompetent umpire that umpired one of the games that he coached. I would bet that what really happened bears little resemblence to Rich's story.

I have had the fortunate opportunity to have witnessed several of these s$$$houses as a neutral bystander evaluating umpires and then received the irate calls from coaches and parents the next day. While the umpires' version of events may have left out key points, the coach's/parent's version of events bore almost no resemblence to reality.

If I could generalize here, let me summarize. Umpires tend to leave out or minimize the mistakes that they made leading up to the s$$$house. However, the facts that I get from them are accurate, just not complete. Coaches and parents tend to make up facts or attribute motives to the umpires for which they have only the slimmest of evidence.

In years of dealing with these coaches and parents, I don't believe that they are deliberately lying. They are so wrapped up in winning that their minds immediately distort the truth so that they truly believe that an untruth is the truth.

Peter

[3appleshigh]

I have had similar situations where a coach wants an appeal to the other official, I have always worked like this. I'll give a recent example.

I'm PU
Close play at third with an over slide and reach back, Runner definatly out by approx 3 inches on the reach back tag, but clearly safe on the original play. BU can't see over slide and tag and calls him safe. Offense coach comes out, calls time and walks to the BU tells him his version of events and calmly asksthat he may want to ask partner for help, BU does,, and calls me over, I call him down to me and meet him half way, no players no coaches, I tell him that 1st ofall does he want my opinion, he doesn't have to ask, he says yes, I tell him what i saw and say, it's your call, if you want to changethen do so, if you don't then don't, I'm behind you either way. This ump changed the call, delt with the upset coach and that was that.

I would never ever change any umps call, If they want to they can, but I'm not changing anything.

[chris s]

At least at the game. After PU overuled BU, more experience BU went ballistic on the PU, right on the field. Fortunately, it was last inning so carry over did not carry over!! Boss-man told me lotsa folks were just amazed/in shock. Glad I was not involved. Now onto my kids game umps.....virtually no training, I am the most patient of the bunch of coaches out there....been there/done that. I am getting other parents jammin me up to "do something", not my place, certainly not during a game. I'll give the guys pointers after the game away from the others, but definately no "showing up". Glad I took this season off of youth ball

[Clark]

3appleshigh Has it right. All part of the pre-game. I never over rule my partner on a judgement call unless he asks.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by ozzy6900
On a tough call I will emphatically say "good call!" to let the "by-standers" know that I am agreeing with my partner.

That's a bad mechanic for a number of reasons.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

That's a bad mechanic for a number of reasons.

Let's list some:

(1) Everyone thinks that you are selling your partner's bad call
(2) They think you're just as bad as your idiot partner

Simple question -- why would you EVER appeal something like this to your partner?

--Rich

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by chris s
At least at the game. After PU overuled BU, more experience BU went ballistic on the PU, right on the field.

Ballistic would likely be my response. Notice that the BU (veteran) didn't appeal. It was the defensive coach that appealed and the 'PU banged him out.' No discussion. No forethought. No future.

Plate ump doesn't make my calls for me. If the rookie wants to work that way then "Take it all son. I'll be waiting in the car when you're done."

I don't think there is anything "pregame" about this. It is so basically fundamental... don't you ever overrule me or you will never be my partner again. And I don't plan to be your partner for the remainder of this game. If you think I've made an incorrect ruling, then we can get together and discuss the situation and promptly do the right thing... BUT DON'T YOU EVER OVERRULE ONE OF MY JUDGEMENT CALLS!

This is an unforgivable sin worthy of a public lambasting.

Aaaaahhhhh I remember it well.... must have been over 10 years ago. The deliverer of my lambasting has since went to the ball diamond in the sky but he taught me a stiff lesson. Don't ever overrule your partner's judgement. Thank-you Ray; I remember.

[scyguy]

although a semi-vet to the nfhs discussion site, these posts were fun to read. I am wondering on the one post about the kid oversliding third, how did the PU see the hand detach from the base but the BU could not? Maybe the view up the line allowed for a better angle. Either way, if I am the BU, I stand by my original call, no appeal, no discussion with PU. If I do allow appeal, coaches will want an appeal on every close play. Don't open this can of worms!!

Ask for help on play at 1st, for example, if in B and not sure of pulled foot, but do it before you make call. After call, sell yourself.

[Rich]

Originally posted by scyguy
although a semi-vet to the nfhs discussion site, these posts were fun to read. I am wondering on the one post about the kid oversliding third, how did the PU see the hand detach from the base but the BU could not? Maybe the view up the line allowed for a better angle. Either way, if I am the BU, I stand by my original call, no appeal, no discussion with PU. If I do allow appeal, coaches will want an appeal on every close play. Don't open this can of worms!!

Ask for help on play at 1st, for example, if in B and not sure of pulled foot, but do it before you make call. After call, sell yourself.

No. Don't do this. Realize that B is just a starting position and that you have legs capable of putting you closer to the play when it happens. Move, get and angle, get your own calls.

I had a play last night. Bases loaded, I'm the PU. Ball hit to the left side in such a way that the only possible play is at first base. Partner BU is in C. Bad throw, swipe tag. Partner points at me from essentially the same position he was in at the time of the pitch.

Tag was so hard on the BR it almost knocked him over. I gave him the help he asked for, but what many ignore is that you shouldn't NEED help in this situation. Get in position, move, get angle, watch the play. Make the call.

--Rich

[mcrowder]

I agree with Rick's point, but no matter where you go, and how well you position yourself, there WILL be instances where you KNOW you didn't see everything you needed to see, or that you SUSPECT there may have been something that you were unable to see. Don't ever let it be coach that gets you to ask for help. If something weird happens, and you DO need help - ask for it yourself, and be firm with the call after you get it.