Steppin on toes

[Rich]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I agree with Rick's point, but no matter where you go, and how well you position yourself, there WILL be instances where you KNOW you didn't see everything you needed to see, or that you SUSPECT there may have been something that you were unable to see. Don't ever let it be coach that gets you to ask for help. If something weird happens, and you DO need help - ask for it yourself, and be firm with the call after you get it.

No. Get the best look you can and make the call. And realize that when a coach "asks" he's asking because he's shopping around for a better call. You can say "NO" to him when he asks. He doesn't have a "right" to appeal judgment decisions.

[scyguy]

rich you are correct the majority of the time, B or C, you still have time to get a good angle. But, there are times when an appeal is necessary. The way we handle it is BU replies "did he pull?", PU replies either "No he did not" while showing the out sign or "yes he did" showing the safe sign. The call is made by the PU not the BU. Works well for us. Similar in a sense to the check swing appeal.

[Rich]

Originally posted by scyguy
rich you are correct the majority of the time, B or C, you still have time to get a good angle. But, there are times when an appeal is necessary. The way we handle it is BU replies "did he pull?", PU replies either "No he did not" while showing the out sign or "yes he did" showing the safe sign. The call is made by the PU not the BU. Works well for us. Similar in a sense to the check swing appeal.

And what happens if the PU is watching a runner touch the plate or watching another runner touch third -- his PRIMARY responsibilities, BTW?

Last night, I happened to be looking in the direction of first base. What if I wasn't, watching the runner touch home or watching the runner come around third? Actually, I glanced up at the moment the tag happened. What if I hadn't and my partner pointed? Should I shrug my shoulders?

I just hope everyone realizes that "going for help" isn't a foolproof option and is never better than working and getting your own calls.

--Rich

[mcrowder]

I guess it depends on the goal, Rich.

If the goal is to look good or keep coaches off your back, maybe you're right. If the goal is to get the right call as often as possible, there's nothing wrong with asking for help in those isolated instances where something odd happened to cause you to not see the whole play.

Our mechanic is similar to that above, although BU will ALWAYS make the final call. BU looks to home to see if PU is looking at him. If he's not, he's absorbed in his other responsibilities. If he is, BU can say "Did he pull?" PU says "He pulled, he pulled!" or "No, he did not", then BU makes the call.

I will agree that except in the rarest of instances (can't even think of one right now), BU would NEVER ask for help because a coach asked them to. It's BU's decision, and he must decide BEFORE he makes the call.

I will also agree that knowing you can ask for help should NEVER NEVER EVER give you excuse to do your best to get in position to make the call.

[chris s]

a few years ago. I am PU in a late season Varsity playoff implication game. R1, ball hit to F6. All you hear from offense is"break it up!!" Kid from first is a freaking tank with jets. He gets beat by throw, then slides HARD, pivot man eludes, no throw, R1's large rear is sitting on bag, legs pointing to left field. Easy, huh?? Not for my prick-head partner.( I really cannot stand this mo-jo)He signals the R1 out....and thats it, no FPSR.(clear-cut, illegal slide hindered pivot man). D coach cometh, he's fuming!! Gets to pard, next thing I know, pard is pointing at me. I just said, "yours all the way". Then I stood back and enjoyed the scene.....LOL

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Let's list some:

(1) Everyone thinks that you are selling your partner's bad call
(2) They think you're just as bad as your idiot partner

Simple question -- why would you EVER appeal something like this to your partner?

--Rich

In the FIRST "Doing It" column I ever wrote for Referee (March, 1984), I said: "Equally important, don't defend the umpire, even when he's right. That sounds paradoxical. It isn't. Suppose you say: 'That was a great call. Carl's doing a super job.' Then, when I blow the next one -- which I may very well do -- you're stuck and your silence now will deafen the crowd."

[DG]

Originally posted by chris s
a few years ago. I am PU in a late season Varsity playoff implication game. R1, ball hit to F6. All you hear from offense is"break it up!!" Kid from first is a freaking tank with jets. He gets beat by throw, then slides HARD, pivot man eludes, no throw, R1's large rear is sitting on bag, legs pointing to left field. Easy, huh?? Not for my prick-head partner.( I really cannot stand this mo-jo)He signals the R1 out....and thats it, no FPSR.(clear-cut, illegal slide hindered pivot man). D coach cometh, he's fuming!! Gets to pard, next thing I know, pard is pointing at me. I just said, "yours all the way". Then I stood back and enjoyed the scene.....LOL

Why not help your partner get the call right, since he asked? He may have been thinking about the turn to first and not concentrating on FPSR.

[DG]

I don't say anything when I think my partner has missed a call and I expect him to do me likewise. If I had a partner overrule a judgement call, or try to overrule a judgement call, we would have an on field discussion to get the call right, ie get it back to what I called. I would not go ballistic on him. Then we would discuss again post game, and I would try to avoid working with him in the future. Given that assignments happen, if I had him again, we would go over this subject again in pre-game.

I don't mind asking my partner for help, if I know he has a better angle and is watching the play, such as for plays at first with nobody on base. But I try to get a good angle and make 98% of the calls I am supposed to make. If I am PU I come up the line to help, if requested, if I am BU I expect my partner to be there for me if needed.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by scyguy
rich you are correct the majority of the time, B or C, you still have time to get a good angle. But, there are times when an appeal is necessary. The way we handle it is BU replies "did he pull?", PU replies either "No he did not" while showing the out sign or "yes he did" showing the safe sign. The call is made by the PU not the BU. Works well for us. Similar in a sense to the check swing appeal.

*IF* you're going to ask for help, I'd suggest asking "Did he have the bag?" or "Did he have a tag?" The "yes" answer is then an out, and the "no" answer a safe -- the same as on the more common "did he go" question.

[Rich]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I guess it depends on the goal, Rich.

If the goal is to look good or keep coaches off your back, maybe you're right. If the goal is to get the right call as often as possible, there's nothing wrong with asking for help in those isolated instances where something odd happened to cause you to not see the whole play.

Our mechanic is similar to that above, although BU will ALWAYS make the final call. BU looks to home to see if PU is looking at him. If he's not, he's absorbed in his other responsibilities. If he is, BU can say "Did he pull?" PU says "He pulled, he pulled!" or "No, he did not", then BU makes the call.

I will agree that except in the rarest of instances (can't even think of one right now), BU would NEVER ask for help because a coach asked them to. It's BU's decision, and he must decide BEFORE he makes the call.

I will also agree that knowing you can ask for help should NEVER NEVER EVER give you excuse to do your best to get in position to make the call.

The point I am trying to make is this: If you go for help, you've dumped the play in the PU's lap. By asking if the partner has a tag, you've already told everyone you didn't see a tag.

If you're partner isn't looking at the play (and looking for pulled feet and swipe tags is usually not the primary responsibility with the BU in C) you have no choice but to call the runner safe.

Now, what will the perception be after this happens?

(1) The base umpire didn't see it
(2) The plate umpire wasn't doing his "job"
(3) NOBODY actually saw the play
(4) Both umpires are idiots

The typical case in the 2-man system is that umpires do not read plays and move quickly enough when working the bases.

Here's a play that ACTUALLY happened Friday afternoon. College game (D-III). I'm BU in a 2-man.

Bases loaded, 2 outs. 3-2 count on the batter. Ball hit on the ground to F6. I started in the C position. Bad throw, swipe tag.

On the hit, I immediately read that the only play would be to first base. I made sure I wasn't in the throwing lane and took some very quick steps to get an angle on the play. By the time I came set, I was well on the "B" side of the mound. Swipe tag, I made the call. Wasn't an easy call, but nobody said a word. Sold the tag, made the call with confidence. Never once considered using the other umpire. He had other things going on, including R3 touching the plate and R2 touching and rounding third.

Do I care if umpires get help? I'm not sure. I hate it when a coach asks me to get help and then thinks I'm being unreasonable when I respond that I worked hard, got into position, and made the proper call.

--Rich

[chris s]

Originally posted by DG

Why not help your partner get the call right, since he asked? He may have been thinking about the turn to first and not concentrating on FPSR.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

Why not.....hmmmmm......well, there was no pivot, there was an illegal slide with no throw, his all the way. Plus, I can't stand the SOB and really enjoyed watching him get his arrogant a$$ chewed on. come to think of it, this guy also fell asleep on a check swing appeal in "A" on me one time.I pointed and asked, he was looking at some high school girl in the stands, he looked real stoopid that time. Check appeals I will always point down for, why not, I just basically said "ball", if pard wants to call "strike", fine by me!!

[DG]

I try to help my BU on FPSR, especially when asked, regardless of what I think of him.

[Art N]

Interesting comment on positioning! I am a new ump and have only done 5 high school games to date. With the bases loaded situation and in the c position, it is sometimes difficult to get an angle fast enough (we were taught.. "don't make calls while you are on the move"). Yesterday, I had a play like your play described above... ball hit to the left side, bases loaded, I was in the C position...pitcher attempts to make play on ball, boobles, can't get runner at home...now turns to make play at third, too late...now looks to first (had a play but didn't make a throw). I would have been hard pressed to get an angle on sweep tag... Perhaps I was out of position? I have heard some guys say they stay in the B position with bases loaded and let UIC have third! Any thoughts?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Art N
Interesting comment on positioning! I am a new ump and have only done 5 high school games to date. With the bases loaded situation and in the c position, it is sometimes difficult to get an angle fast enough (we were taught.. "don't make calls while you are on the move"). Yesterday, I had a play like your play described above... ball hit to the left side, bases loaded, I was in the C position...pitcher attempts to make play on ball, boobles, can't get runner at home...now turns to make play at third, too late...now looks to first (had a play but didn't make a throw). I would have been hard pressed to get an angle on sweep tag... Perhaps I was out of position? I have heard some guys say they stay in the B position with bases loaded and let UIC have third! Any thoughts?

When the ball is hit, step up and let the ball turn you. Take a few crossover steps to the "working area," which is the place behind the mound. Once a throw is made and you know where it is headed, take a few more steps and come set.

Since the bases were loaded and there was a runner scoring, you HAVE to get the angle on the sweep tag. Your partner has primary responsibilities (watching R3 touch home, watching R2 touch third, watching for obstruction on R2 rounding third) and he may not be able to help you at first. Better to assume he can't help you and work as hard as you can in getting the play right.

Moving on contact to a position where you can subsequently move when the fielder commits to a base is important. Angle over distance. You don't need to be on top of the play at third base if it happens there -- it is a force play. Slide over behind the mound and when you read the bad throw you should have an angle giving you the best look possible on a tag play. Use all the clues around you in making a decision -- did the glove collapse into the runner -- did the players' reaction tell you what happened?

Make the call confidently. Sell the call and if a coach comes out don't be quick in pushing responsibility to an umpire who may not have even had the chance to look in that direction.

--Rich

[Art N]

Thanks Rich for the tips. I'll work on those next time out. I also had a situation with a runner on first and in the B position, with pick off throws. It seems we are taught to get at least half way between the mound and second base in line with the outter part of mound (roughly). In this position and a quick throw to first, I felt I only had time to pivot and maybe get one step. The runners dives in, the first baseman tags on his back side, but I can't see the hand hit bag because the runner's body is blocking me. I quickly "sold" a safe a call, which had a few groans...lol. I felt the tag had to be high. We were taught that pick offs better be good to call a runner out. We also were taught that ties go to the ump!
I asked my partner an inning or so later, what he saw, and he said he thought he was out! Any tips!