Collision at first

[BSBAL18]

NFHS: 2 out. F4 and BR collide at first at the same time, however it is a force out, so once F4 touches the bag, the runner is out, correct? Regardless if there is a collision, F4 had control at the initial contact of 1B, and *boom* inning over. Right?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BSBAL18

NFHS: 2 out. F4 and BR collide at first at the same time, however it is a force out, so once F4 touches the bag, the runner is out, correct? Regardless if there is a collision, F4 had control at the initial contact of 1B, and *boom* inning over. Right?

Do you mean that the fielder dropped the ball on the play? Otherwise what's the issue?

BTW - it isn't a force. It has the same effect on the B-R but it isn't one.

[BSBAL18]

Yes, sorry, the fielder dropped the ball upon colliding with the runner, however the base umpire said the collision happened after the fielder made contact with first base (very quickly, but still was AFTER F4 foot touched bag).

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BSBAL18

Yes, sorry, the fielder dropped the ball upon colliding with the runner, however the base umpire said the collision happened after the fielder made contact with first base (very quickly, but still was AFTER F4 foot touched bag).

From the OBR Definitions:

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body
while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching
a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball (not
including hanging laces alone), while holding the ball securely and
firmly in his hand or glove. It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the
fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball. If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act
of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have
been made.

[BSBAL18]

so for NFHS, i found this

"A force-out is a putout during which a runner who is being forced to advance
is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing"

Now you stated that the BR running to first is *NOT* considered a force out, but all other rules discuss the "tag" of the player while not on the base. So if NFHS wants to apply this rule to 1st, then it doesnt go further into "controlling the ball" like the OBR reference does.

So from OBR, he would be safe, but NFHS doesnt go into that detail and i only found the above reference.

So my game (being NFHS) i *believe* he would be out, and OBR he would be safe.

[bob jenkins]

Different experts at different times have had different interps on this play, recognizing that "tagging a base" is different from "tagging a runner." No idea where this stands now -- maybe a recent BRD has some info (the last version I had had one ruling for FED and conflicting rulings for OBR)