NFHS - Pitching change

[rbmartin]

FED rules. Starting pitcher and shortstop switch places after a mound visit with 1 out in the 5th inning.
Under what conditions, if any, may he be allowed to switch back to pitcher with 2 outs in the 7th inning?

[bob jenkins]

If F1 was removed because of the number of visits, or if R6 required more than 8 warm up pitches, or if F1's return violates some state pitch-count rule, then the second switch is prohibited. Otherwise, it's allowed.

[ilyazhito]

I would add that if the (original) pitcher was substituted for, and he re-enters in his proper place in the order, he may return to pitch, if he was not removed from the mound due to excess mound visits, or other violations of pitching rules previously mentioned.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I would add that if the (original) pitcher was substituted for, and he re-enters in his proper place in the order, he may return to pitch, if he was not removed from the mound due to excess mound visits, or other violations of pitching rules previously mentioned.

I saw this last night in a state semi-final game. It caused some consternation by the offense, but was properly allowed by the crew.

In FED, a pitcher may leave the mound and return once per *inning*, subject to the restrictions listed above.

[rbmartin]

So as long as the pitching change occurs after the 1st or 2nd charged conference, its legal. After the 3rd of more charged conference, not permitted (rule 3 sec 4 art 1...After three charged conferences in a seven-inning game, or for any charged conference in excess of one in each extra inning, the pitcher shall be removed as pitcher for duration of the game.) ...not permitted. Correct?

[ilyazhito]

Removing a pitcher does not count as a trip for the purposes of the charged conferences rule, so it might not be surprising to see a formerly-removed pitcher return to the mound, if he is still allowed to by pitch-count or other considerations.

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

So as long as the pitching change occurs after the 1st or 2nd charged conference, its legal. After the 3rd of more charged conference, not permitted (rule 3 sec 4 art 1...After three charged conferences in a seven-inning game, or for any charged conference in excess of one in each extra inning, the pitcher shall be removed as pitcher for duration of the game.) ...not permitted. Correct?

There's a couple things going on here. If a coach or player requests time and is granted it to confer, that's a conference if they don't change pitchers. After 3 (or 1 in extras), they'd have to change pitchers every time. That's where all the rules you quoted come into play.

HOWEVER, if the shortstop and the pitcher merely switched positions without delaying the game (having time called, taking more than 20 seconds to deliver the next pitch, etc), then that's a whole different thing. That's not a conference, and the pitcher not only could do that every inning, but could even come back to pitch that inning. But could only return to pitcher once per inning. So there's the conference provision (by far the most common) but if they just quickly switch positions in some pre-planned rotation without calling time or otherwise delaying, then we're fine.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

So as long as the pitching change occurs after the 1st or 2nd charged conference, its legal. After the 3rd of more charged conference, not permitted (rule 3 sec 4 art 1...After three charged conferences in a seven-inning game, or for any charged conference in excess of one in each extra inning, the pitcher shall be removed as pitcher for duration of the game.) ...not permitted. Correct?

Generally right -- but the numbers are (or might be) off. The team gets three "free" conferences -- so it's on the fourth visit and subsequent that the pitcher can't return.

Originally Posted by scrounge

There's a couple things going on here. If a coach or player requests time and is granted it to confer, that's a conference if they don't change pitchers. After 3 (or 1 in extras), they'd have to change pitchers every time. That's where all the rules you quoted come into play.

HOWEVER, if the shortstop and the pitcher merely switched positions without delaying the game (having time called, taking more than 20 seconds to deliver the next pitch, etc), then that's a whole different thing. That's not a conference, and the pitcher not only could do that every inning, but could even come back to pitch that inning. But could only return to pitcher once per inning. So there's the conference provision (by far the most common) but if they just quickly switch positions in some pre-planned rotation without calling time or otherwise delaying, then we're fine.

The shortstop (and the returning pitcher, for that matter) still get eight warmups -- so the 20-second rule doesn't come into play here.

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The shortstop (and the returning pitcher, for that matter) still get eight warmups -- so the 20-second rule doesn't come into play here.

I meant if they take more than 20 seconds lollygagging around before making the switch known.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by scrounge

There's a couple things going on here. If a coach or player requests time and is granted it to confer, that's a conference if they don't change pitchers. .

2-10 says charged conference occurs when a coach OR his non-playing representative AND a player of the team....

So how would F6 calling time to come talk to F1 be a charged conference? Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Spence

2-10 says charged conference occurs when a coach OR his non-playing representative AND a player of the team....

So how would F6 calling time to come talk to F1 be a charged conference? Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

This is one of the big differences between NFHS and OBR. In OBR, if the shortstop talks to a coach on the way to see F1, then the coach will be considered as having talked to the pitcher, and the visit will count as the 1 allowed visit to the current pitcher in that inning.

However, because NFHS restricts the defensive team to 3 conferences without removing the pitcher per 7 innings, it makes sense that the rule on conferences is more permissive (only coaches are counted for the purposes of charging a conference).

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by Spence

2-10 says charged conference occurs when a coach OR his non-playing representative AND a player of the team....

So how would F6 calling time to come talk to F1 be a charged conference? Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

nah, you're pretty much right, got too quick on the keyboard....unless you think they're using a player to be a conduit to get around the conference rule, that wouldn't be one

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

This is one of the big differences between NFHS and OBR. In OBR, if the shortstop talks to a coach on the way to see F1, then the coach will be considered as having talked to the pitcher, and the visit will count as the 1 allowed visit to the current pitcher in that inning.

That's also going to count as a visit in FED -- even before F6 talks to the pitcher.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's also going to count as a visit in FED -- even before F6 talks to the pitcher.

Yup. It's a defensive conference, after all.