Unusual play

[bsaucer]

Found this play on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jewBHBP_9g4

What I saw: R1, R2. Double steal. R2 caught in rundown, returns to second. R1 reaches second. Both runners tagged while on second. R1 called out. R2 then runs back to first.

Why did R2 run back to first? Is that legal?

Also, If R1 stops and R2 "passes" him while returning to a base, is either of them out?

[bob jenkins]

This was discussed when it happened. R2 should have been out when he returned toward first.

If r2 "passes" R1 while both are between second and third, R1 is out -- it's always the trailing runner who is out for passing.

[bsaucer]

I wonder if R2 tried to "vacate" 2nd base to keep R1 from being tagged out (for two-on-a-base), while at the same time, running to first to keep himself from being tagged while off base.

Of course, it wouldn't work, because "passing the runner" would occur, and you'd have an out for that.

If R2 steps off the bag (toward 3rd) while R1 is tagged, is R1 still out (for two-on-a-base)?

[Mbilica]

Braun was out when he was tagged. But there is nothing in the rules that prohibits a runner from going all the way back to 1st. This is not "running the bases in reverse order" that would indicate a travesty of the game. Segura clearly wasn't sure whether he could be tagged out while staying at 2nd and ran away from the tag. This is a tough play for the umpire. Braun was destined to be out whether he was tagged or Segura left the base towards 1st. But, if he had stepped towards 3rd to protect Braun, Braun wouldn't be out, but Segura could easily be tagged. Actually, on this play, he was tagged and the umpire missed it. These days, they would review it with replay and get it corrected.

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[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

Braun was out when he was tagged. But there is nothing in the rules that prohibits a runner from going all the way back to 1st. This is not "running the bases in reverse order" that would indicate a travesty of the game. Segura clearly wasn't sure whether he could be tagged out while staying at 2nd and ran away from the tag. This is a tough play for the umpire. Braun was destined to be out whether he was tagged or Segura left the base towards 1st. But, if he had stepped towards 3rd to protect Braun, Braun wouldn't be out, but Segura could easily be tagged. Actually, on this play, he was tagged and the umpire missed it. These days, they would review it with replay and get it corrected.

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So you can steal 1st from 2nd?

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

So you can steal 1st from 2nd?

You're not supposed to be able to. Segura was confused as to what was going on, so this did not fall under the travesty rule.

And for the record, he was tagged while off his base, so he should have been out anyway.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

So you can steal 1st from 2nd?

You can't do it on purpose to make a travesty of the game. You can do it on accident, like Segura did, because he was confused about the situation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

Braun was out when he was tagged. But there is nothing in the rules that prohibits a runner from going all the way back to 1st.

Originally Posted by Altor

You can't do it on purpose to make a travesty of the game. You can do it on accident, like Segura did, because he was confused about the situation.

Not true.

Rule 5.06(a)/5.06 (c) Comment (Rule 7.01 Comment): If a
runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes
his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously
occupied base.

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not true.

Rule 5.06(a)/5.06 (c) Comment (Rule 7.01 Comment): If a
runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes
his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously
occupied base.

Was the pitcher currently in position to pitch? No. Ruling Segura out for returning to a previous base is not in the spirit of this rule. I don't think ruling him out for going back to first is what this game required. Think about why the rule you cited was put into the book...

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[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

Was the pitcher currently in position to pitch? No. Ruling Segura out for returning to a previous base is not in the spirit of this rule. I don't think ruling him out for going back to first is what this game required. Think about why the rule you cited was put into the book...

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The pitcher was in position to pitch! He picked him off from legally acquired 2nd base.
Are you saying they put this rule in after this took place? If so, then it was wrong when it happened

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

Was the pitcher currently in position to pitch? No. Ruling Segura out for returning to a previous base is not in the spirit of this rule. I don't think ruling him out for going back to first is what this game required. Think about why the rule you cited was put into the book...

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MLB came out after the incident and said that R2 should have been out. That supported all of us who would have ruled that way when the play first happened.

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

MLB came out after the incident and said that R2 should have been out. That supported all of us who would have ruled that way when the play first happened.

Because R2 was tagged while off the base or because he went back to first?

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[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

The pitcher was in position to pitch! He picked him off from legally acquired 2nd base.
Are you saying they put this rule in after this took place? If so, then it was wrong when it happened

By the time he returned to 2nd, the pitcher didn't have the ball, so, no he wasn't in the position to pitch at the time. My understanding of the rule was that it was put in place to prevent base runners from trying to intimidate or confuse the pitcher and fielders, potentially affecting the ability of the defense to go after the batter.

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[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

By the time he returned to 2nd, the pitcher didn't have the ball, so, no he wasn't in the position to pitch at the time. My understanding of the rule was that it was put in place to prevent base runners from trying to intimidate or confuse the pitcher and fielders, potentially affecting the ability of the defense to go after the batter.

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So the rule now states that the runner, in this case Braun, would be called out upon retreating to 1st? Forget the tag, we know he was out for that.

I took the rule to mean that after the runner legally advanced, and once the pitcher took the rubber, he could no longer EVER retreat to a preceding base?

PS:good question to Bob, was wondering same thing. I think he means out once he retreated based on the rule he stated.