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-   -   Unusual play (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/102623-unusual-play.html)

bsaucer Tue May 02, 2017 01:56pm

Unusual play
 
Found this play on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jewBHBP_9g4

What I saw: R1, R2. Double steal. R2 caught in rundown, returns to second. R1 reaches second. Both runners tagged while on second. R1 called out. R2 then runs back to first.

Why did R2 run back to first? Is that legal?

Also, If R1 stops and R2 "passes" him while returning to a base, is either of them out?

bob jenkins Tue May 02, 2017 01:59pm

This was discussed when it happened. R2 should have been out when he returned toward first.

If r2 "passes" R1 while both are between second and third, R1 is out -- it's always the trailing runner who is out for passing.

bsaucer Tue May 02, 2017 04:33pm

I wonder if R2 tried to "vacate" 2nd base to keep R1 from being tagged out (for two-on-a-base), while at the same time, running to first to keep himself from being tagged while off base.

Of course, it wouldn't work, because "passing the runner" would occur, and you'd have an out for that.

If R2 steps off the bag (toward 3rd) while R1 is tagged, is R1 still out (for two-on-a-base)?

Mbilica Tue May 02, 2017 05:37pm

Braun was out when he was tagged. But there is nothing in the rules that prohibits a runner from going all the way back to 1st. This is not "running the bases in reverse order" that would indicate a travesty of the game. Segura clearly wasn't sure whether he could be tagged out while staying at 2nd and ran away from the tag. This is a tough play for the umpire. Braun was destined to be out whether he was tagged or Segura left the base towards 1st. But, if he had stepped towards 3rd to protect Braun, Braun wouldn't be out, but Segura could easily be tagged. Actually, on this play, he was tagged and the umpire missed it. These days, they would review it with replay and get it corrected.

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thumpferee Tue May 02, 2017 07:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1005376)
Braun was out when he was tagged. But there is nothing in the rules that prohibits a runner from going all the way back to 1st. This is not "running the bases in reverse order" that would indicate a travesty of the game. Segura clearly wasn't sure whether he could be tagged out while staying at 2nd and ran away from the tag. This is a tough play for the umpire. Braun was destined to be out whether he was tagged or Segura left the base towards 1st. But, if he had stepped towards 3rd to protect Braun, Braun wouldn't be out, but Segura could easily be tagged. Actually, on this play, he was tagged and the umpire missed it. These days, they would review it with replay and get it corrected.

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So you can steal 1st from 2nd?

bwburke94 Tue May 02, 2017 10:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumpferee (Post 1005379)
So you can steal 1st from 2nd?

You're not supposed to be able to. Segura was confused as to what was going on, so this did not fall under the travesty rule.

And for the record, he was tagged while off his base, so he should have been out anyway.

Altor Tue May 02, 2017 10:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumpferee (Post 1005379)
So you can steal 1st from 2nd?

You can't do it on purpose to make a travesty of the game. You can do it on accident, like Segura did, because he was confused about the situation.

bob jenkins Wed May 03, 2017 07:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1005376)
Braun was out when he was tagged. But there is nothing in the rules that prohibits a runner from going all the way back to 1st.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor (Post 1005383)
You can't do it on purpose to make a travesty of the game. You can do it on accident, like Segura did, because he was confused about the situation.

Not true.

Rule 5.06(a)/5.06 (c) Comment (Rule 7.01 Comment): If a
runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes
his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously
occupied base.

Mbilica Wed May 03, 2017 07:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1005386)
Not true.

Rule 5.06(a)/5.06 (c) Comment (Rule 7.01 Comment): If a
runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes
his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously
occupied base.

Was the pitcher currently in position to pitch? No. Ruling Segura out for returning to a previous base is not in the spirit of this rule. I don't think ruling him out for going back to first is what this game required. Think about why the rule you cited was put into the book...

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thumpferee Wed May 03, 2017 07:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1005387)
Was the pitcher currently in position to pitch? No. Ruling Segura out for returning to a previous base is not in the spirit of this rule. I don't think ruling him out for going back to first is what this game required. Think about why the rule you cited was put into the book...

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The pitcher was in position to pitch! He picked him off from legally acquired 2nd base.
Are you saying they put this rule in after this took place? If so, then it was wrong when it happened:eek:

bob jenkins Wed May 03, 2017 08:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1005387)
Was the pitcher currently in position to pitch? No. Ruling Segura out for returning to a previous base is not in the spirit of this rule. I don't think ruling him out for going back to first is what this game required. Think about why the rule you cited was put into the book...

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MLB came out after the incident and said that R2 should have been out. That supported all of us who would have ruled that way when the play first happened.

Mbilica Wed May 03, 2017 09:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1005389)
MLB came out after the incident and said that R2 should have been out. That supported all of us who would have ruled that way when the play first happened.

Because R2 was tagged while off the base or because he went back to first?

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Mbilica Wed May 03, 2017 10:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumpferee (Post 1005388)
The pitcher was in position to pitch! He picked him off from legally acquired 2nd base.
Are you saying they put this rule in after this took place? If so, then it was wrong when it happened:eek:

By the time he returned to 2nd, the pitcher didn't have the ball, so, no he wasn't in the position to pitch at the time. My understanding of the rule was that it was put in place to prevent base runners from trying to intimidate or confuse the pitcher and fielders, potentially affecting the ability of the defense to go after the batter.

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thumpferee Wed May 03, 2017 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1005398)
By the time he returned to 2nd, the pitcher didn't have the ball, so, no he wasn't in the position to pitch at the time. My understanding of the rule was that it was put in place to prevent base runners from trying to intimidate or confuse the pitcher and fielders, potentially affecting the ability of the defense to go after the batter.

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So the rule now states that the runner, in this case Braun, would be called out upon retreating to 1st? Forget the tag, we know he was out for that.

I took the rule to mean that after the runner legally advanced, and once the pitcher took the rubber, he could no longer EVER retreat to a preceding base?

PS:good question to Bob, was wondering same thing. I think he means out once he retreated based on the rule he stated.


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