Assistance

[MD Longhorn]

Not wanting to blow up the other thread...

Ruling in Fed or NCAA:

Bases loaded, 1 out. Texas leaguer (not IFF) uncaught in shallow left. Runner from 2nd is off with the pitch, Runner from 3rd is tagging. As the ball is not caught, Runner from 3rd heads home. Runner from 2nd overruns third heading home, and is physically stopped by his coach, who pushes him back to 3rd base.

Throw goes home for the apparent force at home - F2 catches and touches home in plenty of time, but does not tag. Runner slides home.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Not wanting to blow up the other thread...

Ruling in Fed or NCAA:

Bases loaded, 1 out. Texas leaguer (not IFF) uncaught in shallow left. Runner from 2nd is off with the pitch, Runner from 3rd is tagging. As the ball is not caught, Runner from 3rd heads home. Runner from 2nd overruns third heading home, and is physically stopped by his coach, who pushes him back to 3rd base.

Throw goes home for the apparent force at home - F2 catches and touches home in plenty of time, but does not tag. Runner slides home.

R2 was out upon the coach's interference. Force is off. Safe.

That's my take.

[Altor]

Fed 3-2-2 Penalty: The runner shall be called out immediately.

Unlike other penalties in 3-2 and 8-4-2, I see nothing that says the ball is dead. Without a tag, the run scores.

[bob jenkins]

NCAA might have a different ruling because I think the runner there is not declared out until the end of playing action, or similar.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NCAA might have a different ruling because I think the runner there is not declared out until the end of playing action, or similar.

Why would R2 not be out immediately so the defense knows they don't have to play on him?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Why would R2 not be out immediately so the defense knows they don't have to play on him?

I am just saying what I recall the NCAA rule to be (not what I think it should be, nor how it might get ruled on the field).

PENALTY for e. and f.—A delayed dead ball shall be called. At the conclusion of
the play, the assisted runner shall be declared out.

[swkansasref33]

Bob is correct. It is a delayed dead ball, as it allows for plays to be made on other runners. You call the interference immediately, but do not declare the runner out until the conclusion of play.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

Bob is correct. It is a delayed dead ball, as it allows for plays to be made on other runners. You call the interference immediately, but do not declare the runner out until the conclusion of play.

Which is not how I plan on doing it for reasons as shown in the OP. But it is the correct answer for an NCAA test:

"d. This is coach interference. It is a delayed dead ball. After the play, R2 is declared out and the other runners remain at the bases they obtained during the play."

[BSBAL18]

According to the rules video I just watched, the call is the assisted runner is immediately called out and the play continues live. Having said that, i do believe the Umpire better be yelling OUT loudly and clearly so that the catcher knows the tag will be needed at home plate. I think this would cause a fuss regardless because the throw is coming in from left to a no-tag situation at the plate.. during midflight the coach grabs the runner on third. A smart coach would do this intentionally possibly to confuse the defense and have exactly what you had happened. Catcher doesnt tag, run scores, tied game is now a winner, based solely on the rules.

I would like to know Bob Jenkins updated take on this rule and my comment about if a coach did it intentionally in order to disrupt the defense (Although who knows if you could "prove" intentionally assistance).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NCAA might have a different ruling because I think the runner there is not declared out until the end of playing action, or similar.

This is exactly the part I was hoping would get discussed. At NCAA, you don't call the out. If, as intimated by a couple above, you DO call the out immediately, then you've removed the force, changing the result of the OP. You are NOT supposed to call this out, and as such, the force would remain in effect.

In high school, obviously, the force is off, the umpire called it (and as mentioned, hopefully loud), and the run scores if, as described, F2 doesn't tag the runner.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is exactly the part I was hoping would get discussed. At NCAA, you don't call the out. If, as intimated by a couple above, you DO call the out immediately, then you've removed the force, changing the result of the OP. You are NOT supposed to call this out, and as such, the force would remain in effect.

In high school, obviously, the force is off, the umpire called it (and as mentioned, hopefully loud), and the run scores if, as described, F2 doesn't tag the runner.

I think we could come up with other inequities caused by not calling the out when occurs. Do you think the OP is the NCAA rational for the delayed out call?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by umpjim

I think we could come up with other inequities caused by not calling the out when occurs. Do you think the OP is the NCAA rational for the delayed out call?

I don't know their rationale.. but I do know that the rule is not only written that way, but it's driven home by a case play and a test question. Its clear they want it called that way... and if you do it the other way, you set up a protestable situation that can't be solved to either team's satisfaction.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BSBAL18

According to the rules video I just watched, the call is the assisted runner is immediately called out .

That's the HS and pro rule. NCAA is different.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I don't know their rationale.. but I do know that the rule is not only written that way, but it's driven home by a case play and a test question. Its clear they want it called that way... and if you do it the other way, you set up a protestable situation that can't be solved to either team's satisfaction.

While the calling of the out is delayed, is the actual out delayed? Would a run score if the assist was the third out that happened before a runner from third scored when the assist occurred before the score and other plays followed.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by umpjim

While the calling of the out is delayed, is the actual out delayed? Would a run score if the assist was the third out that happened before a runner from third scored when the assist occurred before the score and other plays followed.

This was my next question too. Say the OP occurs...F2 tags the plate for the force out of R3. Then, throws back towards third, but the throw sails to the left field foul pole. All three runners cross the plate. Obviously, R2 is out on the interference and his run doesn't score. But, what's the timing of that out? If it's after the play is over, do R1 and BR score?