Charge/Block question

[UCFGUY06]

This afternoon I had a disagreement with a colleague at lunch. We were debating if what Shaq does posting up is a charge, block, or no call. My colleague said that when Shaq pushes people back with his butt that is a charge. I disagreed. It seems he wants Shaq punished for having a clear weight advantage and able to use some it to get position or post up. Is what Shaq does with his caboose any different then a smaller forward pushing back with his back?

Bottom line to what I am asking- When Shaq pushes people back with his butt is that a charge? The defender is behind him and not in front.

Thoughts? I bolded a part I thought was relevant that would make it seem like it was not a charge.

This is from NBA.com.-A block/charge foul occurs when a defender tries to get in front of his man to stop him from going in that direction. If he does not get into a legal defensive position and contact occurs, it is a blocking foul. If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul. In both situations, if the contact is minimal, no foul may be called. To get into a legal position defending against the dribbler, the defender just needs to get in front of him. On a drive to the basket, the defender must get to his position before the shooter starts his upward shooting motion. For most other cases, the defender must get into position and allow enough distance for the offensive player to stop and/or change direction.

[bob jenkins]

Most here don't work the NBA, so the way it's called there might not match the answers you get here.

That said, if the defender has a legal position, it's a foul for another player to push / force the defender out of that position (displacement).

Now, if the offensive player "makes contact" and the defnesive player voluntarily "gives ground," that's a legal play.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

Bottom line to what I am asking- When Shaq pushes people back with his butt is that a charge? The defender is behind him and not in front.

Front refers to the direction he is going, and is not related to any part of the body.

[UCFGUY06]

I am writing as a curious fan, who created quite a debate in the lunch room today.

Just seems to be you can't call a charging foul on a man who at times has a 100 pound advantage and is posting up. If the defender is behind him and is getting manhandled, how do you call an offensive foul?

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

I am writing as a curious fan, who created quite a debate in the lunch room today.

Just seems to be you can't call a charging foul on a man who at times has a 100 pound advantage and is posting up. If the defender is behind him and is getting manhandled, how do you call an offensive foul?

Easy. The defender (or any player for that matter) is entitled to their current spot on the floor when it has been legally obtained. If the offensive player makes contact that displaces them from their legally obtained position, that's an offensive (player control or team control) foul by rule.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

I am writing as a curious fan, who created quite a debate in the lunch room today.

Just seems to be you can't call a charging foul on a man who at times has a 100 pound advantage and is posting up. If the defender is behind him and is getting manhandled, how do you call an offensive foul?

By blowing the whistle and pointing the other way.

Size doesn't mean the rules don't apply to him.

You're dangerously close to going from writing as "a curious fan" to writing as a "fan-boy." The former is welcomed; the latter, not so much.

[UCFGUY06]

But how is dribbling towards the basket, back turned, a foul? At what point does the offensive player then no longer have the right to make an attempt to the basket.

Are you then saying once a defender is covering a man, all attempts to move towards the hoop are a charge? If a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard dribble with their butt first how is that different then Kobe going straight on?

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

But how is dribbling towards the basket, back turned, a foul? At what point does the offensive player then no longer have the right to make an attempt to the basket.

Are you then saying once a defender is covering a man, all attempts to move towards the hoop are a charge? If a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard dribble with their butt first how is that different then Kobe going straight on?

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

If the defender has a legal position, then the offensive player cannot displace the defender. That's true whether the offiensive player is facing the basket or "backing down" the defender. The offensive player must stop or go around.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

But how is dribbling towards the basket, back turned, a foul? At what point does the offensive player then no longer have the right to make an attempt to the basket.

Are you then saying once a defender is covering a man, all attempts to move towards the hoop are a charge? If a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard dribble with their butt first how is that different then Kobe going straight on?

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

Illegal contact is illegal contact. If the defender has established himself in the path of the dribbler or is in his legally acquired posted up position, if the offensive player dislodges him or the contact is illegal a foul has occured. It does not matter when the contact is with his back, shoulder, butt, arm, ear or nose, illegal contact is illegal contact and is a foul.

[Zoochy]

Think of it this way. You drive a small and you are stopped at a stop light. There is a car in front of you. A real BIG car. All cars are not moving. The car in front of you decides to put the car in reverse and smashes into you. Who is at fault?
Now return to your regular scheduled program.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

There is a standard and set way under high school, college and international rules. The NBA? Not so much.

I've been involved with basketball officiating for over 50 years and I don't have a clue what a "foul' is in the NBA.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

But how is dribbling towards the basket, back turned, a foul? At what point does the offensive player then no longer have the right to make an attempt to the basket.

Are you then saying once a defender is covering a man, all attempts to move towards the hoop are a charge? If a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard dribble with their butt first how is that different then Kobe going straight on?

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

Sure there is - go back and read your original post..from nba.com: "If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul." Doesn't get much clearer than that....it doesn't matter if the offensive player is going forwards, backwards, sideways or turning somersaults.

You asked a question and in response have been given good and accurate information by some very experienced officials - being argumentative, especially out of ignorance won't help your case. As the title indicates, this is an officiating forum - a place where officials and interested others get together to discuss and improve our knowledge and understanding of officiating the game of basketball. Anyone interested in learning more about the sport and how it is officiated is always welcome. But as Bob indicated, for "fan-boys" -those that simply want to espouse opinions and aren't interested in the facts - there are other discussion boards that are more suitable....

Being a curious fan can be a good thing, but being an informed and knowledgeable fan is much better. If you want to be the latter, I'd suggest you spend some time learning the fundamentals and rules of basketball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

I am writing as a curious fan, who created quite a debate in the lunch room today.

Just seems to be you can't call a charging foul on a man who at times has a 100 pound advantage and is posting up. If the defender is behind him and is getting manhandled, how do you call an offensive foul?

Because "manhandling" isn't legal. How far do you think it's ok to push? I can tell you I would call a lot of those "moves" fouls if they happened in my high school games.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Because "manhandling" isn't legal.

Not even in a girl's game?

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not even in a girl's game?

You been in the nog again?