Lead call over the back foul(pushing)

[buildere8]

I am told by a senior Ref that a Lead Official should never call a pushing foul(over the back) in the paint area. It is the responsibility of the C or the T. Your thoughts?

If that's the case, then what is the lead even watching the paint for?

[mick]

Originally Posted by buildere8

I am told by a senior Ref that a Lead Official should never call a pushing foul(over the back) in the paint area. It is the responsibility of the C or the T. Your thoughts?

Bovine scat.
Lead generally has waist-up and a very good look at any displacment in the lane.

I don't agree that the Lead should never call the rebounding (on the back) fouls but the Center and Trail should have better angles to make these calls. A Lead making this call isn't a problem but if things are being done correctly by all 3 officials the C and T should have the better angles to make this kind of call.

Just my opinion based on what I have seen and been taught over the years.

[Scrapper1]

The higher the contact, the tougher it is for the Lead to see, simply because he/she is close to it. The C and T have a wider view and should have a decent angle. I won't say the Lead should "never" have it, but I think, in general, the outside guys have a better shot at getting it right.

On the other hand, the Lead has the best look at a push in the small of the back before the players jump. That's the one that is easiest for the Lead and hardest for the C and T.

But once the players jump and get up off the floor, those bumps from behind are harder for the Lead to see, IMO.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The higher the contact, the tougher it is for the Lead to see, simply because he/she is close to it. The C and T have a wider view and should have a decent angle. I won't say the Lead should "never" have it, but I think, in general, the outside guys have a better shot at getting it right.

On the other hand, the Lead has the best look at a push in the small of the back before the players jump. That's the one that is easiest for the Lead and hardest for the C and T.

But once the players jump and get up off the floor, those bumps from behind are harder for the Lead to see, IMO.

I agree, particularly if the Lead remains stationary near the lane.
Backing away [going wider], 4-6 steps, may improve a poor angle.

Originally Posted by mick

I agree, particularly if the Lead remains stationary near the lane.
Backing away [going wider], 4-6 steps, may improve a poor angle.

If you're in a gym that allows a wide angle, by all means, use it! I worked in a gym the other night where there's like 10 feet beyond the end line to the wall, so I went about 5 feet off the end line to get a better angle. You can see quite a bit from that angle, which sometimes seems better than any angle that I could have as a trail in 2-man.

[JRutledge]

If a foul takes place in your area, call it. The C and T do not have the best angle all the time on these fouls and often do not see what proceeded come other contact. I used to agree with that opinion years ago, but now I have worked long enough to know that is a silly statement.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I think the thing that should be remembered is that the L in some instances is really straight-lined. And what looks like a pushing foul from behind is not a foul at all. My position is: If the L can get the angle, especially in a two-man crew, and can see the push, then by all means call the foul. But, far too many times, I will be in the C or T and have a great look at the play and the L is calling a pushing foul when I darn well know he is calling the foul because he thinks there is a foul when he really can't see what is happening because he is straight-lined on the play.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

But, far too many times, I will be in the C or T and have a great look at the play and the L is calling a pushing foul when I darn well know he is calling the foul because he thinks there is a foul when he really can't see what is happening because he is straight-lined on the play.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

That sounds more like people calling what looks like something, rather than what is actually there. If that is the case then it does not matter where you are positioned you are not going to get the call right in the first place. I only try to call fouls that I clearly see, not what I think happens. And I think you have to allow for some contact on rebounds or you will have a foul every single time there is a shot. I am looking for displacement and a clear advantage, not simple contact to call a foul, especially on rebounding action.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by buildere8

I am told by a senior Ref that a Lead Official should never call a pushing foul(over the back) in the paint area. It is the responsibility of the C or the T. Your thoughts?

"Never say never and never say always."

A game where the T and C are being active and getting the rebounding fouls makes for a much better game (it means they are staying actively involved and not bailing out), but there are going to be occasional situations where the L has to help out on a rebounding foul.

[dbking]

I'm with MTD on this one.

L needs to be able to see between the players to see if there is really contact. Many times L is guessing if there is contact or not. In two person mechanics, L has no option other than guess.

IMO, the hardest transition from 2 whistle to 3 whistle is the L position. L needs to be very patient with whistle and quit thinking there is a foul and knowing that there is a foul. Trusting T and C to be in position to make the fouls. T and C need to be able to see through the lane and take the match ups that they have a clean view of. Displacement is the key in calling these fouls. If you can't see between the players then you have business calling the foul.

Players are so much more athletic, quicker and jump out of the gym. THe higher the level you work the better you need to be at this.

[beachbum]

I'm a second year guy, so help me out here.

In two man, I'm told to watch my primary area and in the T, that does not include the paint. So is an official considered ball watching in they are calling over the back in the paint, when the play is at the basket?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by beachbum

I'm a second year guy, so help me out here.

In two man, I'm told to watch my primary area and in the T, that does not include the paint. So is an official considered ball watching in they are calling over the back in the paint, when the play is at the basket?

So if all 10 players go to the paint, you are not calling anything that you obviously see?

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by beachbum

I'm a second year guy, so help me out here.

In two man, I'm told to watch my primary area and in the T, that does not include the paint. So is an official considered ball watching in they are calling over the back in the paint, when the play is at the basket?

The primary are during a rebound is slightly different from the primary area during and offensive play.

Look at the players on your side of the basket and up the middle of the lane.