Elbows

[RKBUmp]

Never reffed a basketball game in my life, so dont know all the ins and outs of the rules, but would like to get some clarification on elbows.

Son plays on an NYS 12-13 basketball team. They played a team yesterday that had 2 very large kids for the age, probably at least 6', one weighed I would guess 165, the other 180 or so. We have 1 kid that is maybe 5' 10", the others are all around 5'5" to 5'7".

The bigger and heavier of the players on the other team no one could handle, he would just use his size and weight to force people around. When he would get a rebound, he would immediately pull the ball into the middle of his chest, stick his elbows straight out and then spin. 4 of our players took elbows in the face, 2 in the cheek, one in the mouth and another in the nose. These hits were hard enough that 3 of the players ended up on thier backs, and the one that got hit in the nose had a bloody nose.

It was a kid reffing the game, and at the half our coach went and talked to him about the player throwing elbows. According to the official, if he had been flinging his elbows, it would be one thing, but since he was holding them stationary and just spinning his body it was legal.

Thoughts, legal or illegal?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Never reffed a basketball game in my life, so dont know all the ins and outs of the rules, but would like to get some clarification on elbows.

Son plays on an NYS 12-13 basketball team. They played a team yesterday that had 2 very large kids for the age, probably at least 6', one weighed I would guess 165, the other 180 or so. We have 1 kid that is maybe 5' 10", the others are all around 5'5" to 5'7".

The bigger and heavier of the players on the other team no one could handle, he would just use his size and weight to force people around. When he would get a rebound, he would immediately pull the ball into the middle of his chest, stick his elbows straight out and then spin. 4 of our players took elbows in the face, 2 in the cheek, one in the mouth and another in the nose. These hits were hard enough that 3 of the players ended up on thier backs, and the one that got hit in the nose had a bloody nose.

It was a kid reffing the game, and at the half our coach went and talked to him about the player throwing elbows. According to the official, if he had been flinging his elbows, it would be one thing, but since he was holding them stationary and just spinning his body it was legal.

Thoughts, legal or illegal?

This is going to be a quick repsonse because Bonnie and I are about to leave for Andy and Mark, Jr.'s 05:30pmEDT baseball game. I am going to preface my response with the following statement: This is a play that has to be seen and not described to give an accurate answer. But from you description, my first response would be a player control foul.

MTD, Sr.

[Scrapper1]

Ump, excessively swinging the elbows is a violation, NFHS 9-13. By definition, "excessively" means "faster than the torso is rotating" (4-24-8a). It is legal, to hold the ball to your chest or under your chin with your elbows extended (9-13-2), but that doesn't make it legal to contact an opponent with those elbows.

If a player has the ball in that position and pivots, planting his elbow into an opponent's face or chest, it's possible that there should be a personal foul called against the player with the ball. It's something that you'd have to see to give an informed opinion, obviously; but (1) it's legal to hold the ball like that and (2) it's not legal to knock somebody on their butt by putting an elbow into their chest.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ump, excessively swinging the elbows is a violation, NFHS 9-13. By definition, "excessively" means "faster than the torso is rotating" (4-24-8a). It is legal, to hold the ball to your chest or under your chin with your elbows extended (9-13-2), but that doesn't make it legal to contact an opponent with those elbows.

If a player has the ball in that position and pivots, planting his elbow into an opponent's face or chest, it's possible that there should be a personal foul called against the player with the ball. It's something that you'd have to see to give an informed opinion, obviously; but (1) it's legal to hold the ball like that and (2) it's not legal to knock somebody on their butt by putting an elbow into their chest....

...eye, nose, cheek, chin, ear, etc.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bktballref

..eye, nose, cheek, chin, ear, etc.

Thanks. I think I covered that, though. . .

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If a player has the ball in that position and pivots, planting his elbow into an opponent's face or chest, it's possible that there should be a personal foul called

[BktBallRef]

Judas Preist...so sensitive.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Judas Preist...so sensitive.

Hmmmm. I don't see the smiley in your post. It must be stuck up your. . .

[TravelinMan]

Ump, just curious, where upstate? I used to officiate in the Albany area. I was part of IAABO 36 and you had to be at least 18 to call. Youngest official I ever worked with was in college and he was a decent official. All officials had to take written test; new officials were partnered with more experienced officials. How young was your ref?