What a Catch!! or Not?

[Frank Lemon]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5ZxqUjklqQI

I'm sure many of you have seen this play, and based on Rules Supplement #20 in the 2007 rulebook, in my opinion this should be an out. But what if she is standing on the collapsed fence prior to catching the ball in what would have been home run territory?

The rule reads in part, "when a collapsible, portable fence is used and a defensive player is standing on the fence when the catch is made, it is a legal catch; therefore a defensive player should be able to stand on a fence that has fallen or is falling to the ground. As long as the defensive player has not stepped outside the playing area, the other side of the fence, the catch is legal."

So if the fence falls toward home run territory, does it essentially extend the field? Can the defense stand on a collapsed fence in what was home run territory just seconds earlier, and make a legal catch?

[CecilOne]

She clearly caught the ball before knocking down the barrier or passing it.
Was there an ump in position to see that, without replay? I see someone behind the SS, presumably an umpire going out, but can't tell if the angle was good enough. Looks to me like one foot might have still been inside the fence at the catch.

Of course, the Q is the rule itself, and whether a collapsed fence extends the field. It does not "extend the field" if we see the fence as "defining the field". There is no rule spec distance, other than a recommended max and min.

[IRISHMAFIA]

You didn't cite the rules you are quoting.

In ASA, this is a catch. And, in this circumstance, one helluva catch!

ADDED: If this was not the third out of the inning, the moment the OF touched the ground outside the fence, the ball would be declared dead and all runners awarded one base.

[Frank Lemon]

Speaking ASA, my bad.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If this was not the third out of the inning, the moment the OF touched the ground outside the fence, the ball would be declared dead and all runners awarded one base.

I was noting that the score board in the upper right hand corner of the screen listed one out. I was waiting for the defensive player to throw in to get the runner at first out, presuming she was not tagged up already. I would have been incorrect, because you are right that the ball would be dead.

So that raises another question. Would R1, assuming she was not tagged up, be allowed to return to 1B, since she touched 2B, 3B and home after the ball was dead?

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Frank Lemon

Speaking ASA, my bad.

Actually - no. This is a high school game, assumably under NFHS rules. As long as a temp fence is not completely horizontal when a fielder makes contact or steps on it, we have a legal catch. Then, of course she falls into DBT, so advance runners one base. (From last base achieved at time of dead ball)

Same answer Mike gave for ASA.

BTW - Dan - it is not unusual for HS scoreboards to be wrong. Unlike Rec fields with a press box and experienced attendant, most HS control panels (at least around here) are in the home side dugout run by a third-stringer or who ever the coach could recruit. I frequently flash the count or outs into the dugout or check run totals, as most players and coaches will look at the scoreboard to make playing decisions.

So that raises another question. Would R1, assuming she was not tagged up, be allowed to return to 1B, since she touched 2B, 3B and home after the ball was dead?

Yes. However, if she was already past 2B at time of dead ball, then she would be awarded 3B, and not allowed to return to 1B, and called out on appeal for 3rd out.

Whatever the rule, it was an awesome catch. We never will know if the umpires got it right. The "talking heads" sure as h*ll were out in left field!

WMB

[Frank Lemon]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Actually - no. This is a high school game, assumably under NFHS rules. As long as a temp fence is not completely horizontal when a fielder makes contact or steps on it, we have a legal catch. Then, of course she falls into DBT, so advance runners one base. (From last base achieved at time of dead ball)

Same answer Mike gave for ASA.


WMB

I didn't mean to imply this was an ASA game, I was looking for what the ruling would be if it were being played under ASA rules.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Frank Lemon

I didn't mean to imply this was an ASA game, I was looking for what the ruling would be if it were being played under ASA rules.

OK, then in the video we have a catch in either rule set.

But your question was: "Can the defense stand on a collapsed fence in what was home run territory just seconds earlier, and make a legal catch?"

ASA - yes. (per R.S. #20) NFHS - no. (per 2003 Softball Guide)

WMB

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

OK, then in the video we have a catch in either rule set.

But your question was: "Can the defense stand on a collapsed fence in what was home run territory just seconds earlier, and make a legal catch?"

ASA - yes. (per R.S. #20) NFHS - no. (per 2003 Softball Guide)

WMB

Although in the OP video, even in NFHS it would be legal and an out followed by dead ball as you said "As long as a temp fence is not completely horizontal when a fielder makes contact or steps on it, we have a legal catch".

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

...Rec fields with a press box and experienced attendant, ...

You're joking, right??

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You're joking, right??

No, he meant the nats in OKC.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

I was noting that the score board in the upper right hand corner of the screen listed one out. I was waiting for the defensive player to throw in to get the runner at first out, presuming she was not tagged up already. I would have been incorrect, because you are right that the ball would be dead.

So that raises another question. Would R1, assuming she was not tagged up, be allowed to return to 1B, since she touched 2B, 3B and home after the ball was dead?

In ASA, yes. Runners may legally return to any number of bases during dead ball, so long as the umpire handles his mechanics properly, and allows the return, and not just award bases immediately. If the umpire announces the award, and the runner stops at 2nd without returning, then the appeal can be heard.

Also, and as a "by the way", I was given the response to the "extending the field" concern by Henry Pollard years ago. His statement was that if a fence was solid and permanent, it is legal for a fielder to climb up that fence; so all levels of baseball and softball have, in fact, extended the field upwards by allowing the fielder to reach from a spot above the field. Accordingly, he compared standing on the fence in its down position to being no more advantage than climbing a solid fence; and felt that the defense deserved to get an equivalent benefit, and not be penalized by the temporary fence.

[argodad]

NFHS game. As others have clearly posted, we have a catch, an out, and runners awarded one base on the catch and carry into dead ball territory.

However, the most striking thing about the video clip is the complete ignorance of the announcers. These guys make Tim McCarver look like a rules expert. Reminds me of the new ESPN commercials in which the guy is talking sports out of his "backside."

Where is it that HS games are televised? Kailua? Hawaii?

[argodad]

Anyone know what the ruling was in the actual game?

[scottk_61]

I just watched the video and man oh man.
Announcers and their arrogance/stupidity.

Anybody notice the ump's uniform?
Are they wearing Elbecos?