Elbow Swing

[The_Rookie]

If B1 swings her elbows and makes non-incidental contact with an elbow to the head of A1, what type of foul can result?

My answer was Flagrant..based on many discussions here that above the shoulder contact with an elbow is a Flagrant foul. The answer given was it could be common, Intentional or Flagrant.

Thoughts?

[Adam]

I've got intentional or flagrant. Not common. New rule within the last year or so.

[BillyMac]

2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

I've got intentional or flagrant. Not common. New rule within the last year or so.

Yet there was more than one state that interpreted "movement" to be relative to the body. So, a normal pivot where the elbow was moving exactly with the body, in those states, was ruled to be common. If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yet there was more than one state that interpreted "movement" to be relative to the body. So, a normal pivot where the elbow was moving exactly with the body, in those states, was ruled to be common. If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.

True. Mine was one.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yet there was more than one state that interpreted "movement" to be relative to the body. So, a normal pivot where the elbow was moving exactly with the body, in those states, was ruled to be common. If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.

Correct yet again Camron and Adam...

Long discussion last year. I called it the way Camron listed it. We had disagreements within our association.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yet there was more than one state that interpreted "movement" to be relative to the body. So, a normal pivot where the elbow was moving exactly with the body, in those states, was ruled to be common. If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.

Camron:

What you say is how it should be called.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.

I was under the impression, for interpretation purposes, that the unofficial definition, for purposes of calling the swinging elbow violation, was the elbow moving (rotating) faster than the body? How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? Do we have two different unofficial definitions of an excessively swinging elbow, one for a violations, and another one for fouls, of various types?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I was under the impression, for interpretation purposes, that the unofficial definition, for purposes of calling the swinging elbow violation, was the elbow moving (rotating) faster than the body? How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? Do we have two different unofficial definitions of an excessively swinging elbow, one for a violations, and another one for fouls, of various types?

Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial:

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders.

Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial:

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders.

Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.

Agreed. I'm not going to flagrant until I see intent or complete disregard for safety.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial

BadNewsRef: You're post is safe with me. I swear that I won't repeat this to anyone except for the few people that use the internet.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders. Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.

Thanks for the valiant attempt, but I'm still confused.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive ...

How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? For thirty-two years we've been taught (unofficially) to call the excessive swinging elbow violation (didn't this used to be a technical foul at one point?) for elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player, without any contact.

Is this (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player) no longer the (unofficial) definition of an excessively swinging elbow? Can't we still use this definition (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player) for when contact is made, and decide to go with an intentional, or flagrant, but never a common, foul?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm not going to flagrant until I see intent or complete disregard for safety.

Where's the "Like" button on this website? By the way, if I did click it, it would mean that I liked the post, not necessarily the poster. I want to be sure that I make this perfectly clear. One is judged by the company he keeps, and I've got a reputation to maintain.

[canuckrefguy]

Download Video as MP4

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Download Video as MP4

So as I read the rule, this should be an intentional foul.

[BillyMac]

Nice video canuckrefguy. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So as I read the rule, this should be an intentional foul.

2012-13 Points Of Emphasis
b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

Using my old fashioned unofficial definition (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player), I would not call this excessive swinging (with no contact I would not call this an excessive swinging violation), but, in the spirit, and intent (be careful swinging elbows near other player's heads), of the rule change, a few years ago, I would call this an intentional foul.

But, then again, the NFHS rule change confused me back when it came out, we still have come confusion among our local board members, and it still confuses me, so I'm open to other interpretations.