Did I drop kick one?

[fullor30]

Girls varsity tonight. A1 is on floor( I can't remember how she got there, loose ball and she recovered probably) holding ball while on her back defenders are reaching down trying to grab ball. A1 swings arms from side to side slightly rolling from side to side(let's call it one cheek up if you will) Shoulders turning almost perpendicular to floor to give you a visual.

I call travel. Coach disagrees, I tell him it's a travel by rule he tells me no it isn't.

'A player while on his/her back may pass shoot dribble or call a timeout. He/she may not roll over' per casebook4-44-5b is all I could find. is the act of rolling travelling? Is rolling over just that, rolling over? I couldn't find anything else to support my case, so did I kick it? I felt the girl was gaining an advantage from rocking from side to side.

Clearly, it may be a 'I have to see it' moment. Is the fact she was rolling enough to justify my call?

Bring it on, I promised to email coach ruling and I may have to choose fried, poached or scrambled egg on my face.

I will say, I've never had my judgement questioned before in this situation on many levels of ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Girls varsity tonight. A1 is on floor( I can't remember how she got there, loose ball and she recovered probably) holding ball while on her back defenders are reaching down trying to grab ball. A1 swings arms from side to side slightly rolling from side to side(let's call it one cheek up if you will) Shoulders turning almost perpendicular to floor to give you a visual.

I call travel. Coach disagrees, I tell him it's a travel by rule he tells me no it isn't.

'A player while on his/her back may pass shoot dribble or call a timeout. He/she may not roll over' per casebook4-44-5b is all I could find. is the act of rolling travelling? Is rolling over just that, rolling over? I couldn't find anything else to support my case, so did I kick it? I felt the girl was gaining an advantage from rocking from side to side.

Clearly, it may be a 'I have to see it' moment. Is the fact she was rolling enough to justify my call?

Bring it on, I promised to email coach ruling and I may have to choose fried, poached or scrambled egg on my face.

I will say, I've never had my judgement questioned before in this situation on many levels of ball.

You NAILED IT!!! TRAVELING!!! Your description of raising one cheek and then the other sealed the deal. I would have him take you out for a nice Italian dinner.

MTD, Sr.

[JugglingReferee]

From what I read, the player is laying on the court on her back, fully horizontal.

For the shoulders to be almost perpendicular to the floor sounds like considerable movement. Travel.

[Nevadaref]

In my opinion the coach is correct. We have had a couple of previous threads on this. The fact is that the NFHS has never clearly defined "roll over" so it is a gray area.

For me, I won't penalize just because there is considerable movement or the player gains an advantage, the player must actually violate a rule. Players do all sorts of things during a game which entail considerable movement or in an attempt to gain an advantage and that's what players should do. They are trying to get the upper hand and win the game. What we must decide is if a player is gaining an illegal or unfair advantage. So what is unfair about turning to the side when holding the ball while on the floor? That seems like a smart play and protecting the ball.

My definition of "roll over" means to turn more than 180 degrees, so a player on his/her back would have to flip to his/her front before I will deem it a traveling violation. Turning to one side or even rocking from side to side is not rolling over.

Just focus on the definition of the word "over."

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In my opinion the coach is correct. We have had a couple of previous threads on this. The fact is that the NFHS has never clearly defined "roll over" so it is a gray area.

For me, I won't penalize just because there is considerable movement or the player gains an advantage, the player must actually violate a rule. Players do all sorts of things during a game which entail considerable movement or in an attempt to gain an advantage and that's what players should do. They are trying to get the upper hand and win the game. What we must decide is if a player is gaining an illegal or unfair advantage. So what is unfair about turning to the side when holding the ball while on the floor? That seems like a smart play and protecting the ball.

My definition of "roll over" means to turn more than 180 degrees, so a player on his/her back would have to flip to his/her front before I will deem it a traveling violation. Turning to one side or even rocking from side to side is not rolling over.

Just focus on the definition of the word "over."

Afraid of that, If I can't enforce it by definiton, I think I'm stuck, I've always been premature in calling a travel here, anticipating the rolling over. Over is the key word.

Lord, I hate it when a coach maybe right.

Addendum: She was rolling from side to side, so one could say she was rolling over to the other side. As you say it is a gray area.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We have had a couple of previous threads on this.

Yes we have!

I would be curious as to what definition most referee's actually use to call their travel in this type of circumstance - the rolling, as described in the OP, or the rolling as defined by Nevada. (Take a poll?)

[bob jenkins]

I'm in general agreement with Nevada here (but I don't know if (a) 180* is the criterion, or (b) if the player violated that).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Your description of raising one cheek and then the other sealed the deal.

It's the "old lifting the pivot cheek call".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's the "old lifting the pivot cheek call".

Thank you. It appears that Billy and I are the only ones that picked up on the most important piece of information in the OP.

MTD, Sr.

[refiator]

I think you are splitting hairs. I have nothing based on your description.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by refiator

I have nothing based on your description.

And I've got a travel.

(Man. I hate it when I agree with Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. It never turns out well.)

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And I've got a travel.

(Man. I hate it when I agree with Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. It never turns out well.)

Billy,

Give me your reasoning, I see both sides and hopefully you can sway me to travelling

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Give me your reasoning, I see both sides and hopefully you can sway me to traveling

As Nevadaref stated many posts ago, it's a gray area in the rulebook. Maybe it's a, "When in my little part of Connecticut" thing. We've always been taught to call a travel if the player on the ground moves their body, not their arms, in any way that prevents defenders from grabbing the ball, like starting to roll over. If the player on the ground does anything else other than pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a timeout, or sit up, Connecticuters call a traveling violation every time.

Of course, the player could just lay there on the ground for up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds, if not closely guarded, but that's probably not going to happen in a real game.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

As Nevadaref stated many posts ago, it's a gray area in the rulebook. Maybe it's a, "When in my little part of Connecticut" thing. We've always been taught to call a travel if the player on the ground moves their body, not their arms, in any way that prevents defenders from grabbing the ball, like starting to roll over. If the player on the ground does anything else other than pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a timeout, or sit up, Connecticuters call a traveling violation every time.

Of course, the player could just lay there on the ground for up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds, if not closely guarded, but that's probably not going to happen in a real game.

That's how I see it, it really is a gray area.

Say, if you reffed a game in Port Arthur Texas, would you be a Connecticut referee on Port Arthur's court? Ouch.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Girls varsity......

....I promised to email coach ruling........

Is this standard/accepted practice in your area?
In mine, if our assignor or executive director discovered that we were e-mailing HS coaches or AD's we'd be looking at a suspension, plus you can kiss any playoff assignments goodbye.