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Old Mon Aug 25, 2014, 06:09pm
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Question R2 and Back Row Attack - Whistle?

2014 Case Book 5-5-3b-7 says, "The second referee's specific responsibilities shall be to determine back-row player faults."

Specifically, what does "determine" mean? Give discrete signal to R1? Blow the whistle to stop play?


I seem to recall some conversation at a local meeting about the R2 being mandated to blow the whistle in this situation, but I don't see this specifically in the Rule or Case Book.

Based purely on the Case Book 5-5-3b, I would say, discrete signal only. That is because 5-5-3b-1 says, "Whistle and give the signal for calls initiated by the second referee including time-out, substitutions and dead ball out of bounds for an antenna fault on second referee's side of the net." Is there a difference between "Whistle" and "Determine"?

Thanks,
Tim
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2014, 06:51pm
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Since the second referee is responsible for identifying illegal attacks and illegal blocks just as much as the first referee, they should be prepared to whistle this fault if the first referee does not.

Key words, "if the first referee does not". If they have, or have begun to blow their whistle indicating this fault, then the second referee does not have to blow their whistle.

This boils down to a solid pre-match discussion. Often times, you'll hear the first referee ask for the chance to blow their whistle on the fault first, prior to the second referee's whistle. If the first referee does not acknowledge your discreet signal, as the second referee, blow your whistle.
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2014, 09:30am
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Hi Antonio (and anyone else that can add to this discussion),

I don't doubt that the R2 should be prepared to whistle a BRA/BRB, if the R1 does not. However, I cannot find any specifics mandating the R2's whistle in the Rule Book or Case Book.

The following quiz question adds to the uncertainty...

Q. The second referee should whistle and give a signal for:
  1. Illegal alignment of players on the serving team at the moment of serve.
  2. Ball out of bounds for an antenna fault on the second referee's side of the net.
  3. Back-row player violations.
  4. All of the above.

Clearly, #1 is no (not R2's responsibility).
Clearly, #2 is yes (must be whistled).

The "no" in #1 eliminates #4 from being an option.

#3 then becomes suspect, especially given the lack of clear responsibility to "whistle," when the case book only lists "determine."

Any thoughts?
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timasdf View Post
Hi Antonio (and anyone else that can add to this discussion),

I don't doubt that the R2 should be prepared to whistle a BRA/BRB, if the R1 does not. However, I cannot find any specifics mandating the R2's whistle in the Rule Book or Case Book.

The following quiz question adds to the uncertainty...

Q. The second referee should whistle and give a signal for:
  1. Illegal alignment of players on the serving team at the moment of serve.
  2. Ball out of bounds for an antenna fault on the second referee's side of the net.
  3. Back-row player violations.
  4. All of the above.

Clearly, #1 is no (not R2's responsibility).
Clearly, #2 is yes (must be whistled).

The "no" in #1 eliminates #4 from being an option.

#3 then becomes suspect, especially given the lack of clear responsibility to "whistle," when the case book only lists "determine."

Any thoughts?
"should" and "can" aren't always the same thing. :-)
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2014, 09:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMadera View Post
"should" and "can" aren't always the same thing. :-)
Agreed. I'm mostly trying to determine (by specific rule reference) what "determine" means, relative to "whistling." The wording of the second referee's responsibilities appears to be inconsistent.

Seems to me that the responsibilities should be written more clearly. Why do some say "whistle," but others say, "determine"? Wouldn't "determine" be a necessary requirement prior to "whistling"???

Further, what is the purpose of "determining" a violation, but not acting on that determination (either with a discrete or a whistle)?

Last edited by timasdf; Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:59pm.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timasdf View Post
Agreed. I'm mostly trying to determine (by specific rule reference) what "determine" means, relative to "whistling." The wording of the second referee's responsibilities appears to be inconsistent.

Seems to me that the responsibilities should be written more clearly. Why do some say "whistle," but others say, "determine"? Wouldn't "determine" be a necessary requirement prior to "whistling"???

Further, what is the purpose of "determining" a violation, but not acting on that determination (either with a discrete or a whistle)?
Usually rules questions refer to if nothing else unusual has occurred unless otherwise specified. So try to base your interpretations and answers based on that. Think of not so much what the R2 can eventually do, but what the R2 is expected to IMMEDIATELY do. I would not want the R2 to immediately whistle an illegal attack (after "determining" the fault, the R2 should first discretely alert the R1 to the fault and try to get the R1 to whistle it, but can eventually if the R1 does not), but I would definitely expect the R2 immediately whistle an antenna fault on his/her side of the net, as that has been defined as a primary responsibility for the R2.

Same logic applies on a failed pancake attempt.
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Old Sun Sep 07, 2014, 06:10pm
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I agree with Felix on the use of a discrete signal, and it is something that I always discuss pre-match.

My preference is that the R2 will give a discrete signal indicating when a back row player is involved in a potential violation situation, attack or block. It is then up to the R1 to decide if the ball was completely above the height of the net (BRA) or any part of the blocker's body was above the net (BRB). At that point, the R1 can either blow the whistle or use the safe signal as appropriate.

A back row violation is also something that you can determine after the play is dead, so you can go back and get it if necessary then.
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Last edited by TimTaylor; Sun Sep 07, 2014 at 06:13pm.
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