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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 22, 2011, 11:27am
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Strange situation

This has never happened to me before but at least I know how to handle it now

This is a high school match using NHFS rules.
I am R1 and blow the whistle for serve. The server is the Libero who rotated into that spot. The Libero notices that the two middles never exchanged. Libero is trying to get her coaches attention and finally does. I am at 4 on the five second count and the coach yells for time out. The R2 grants the time out. All the players leave the court. I yell to my partner that there is no time out because I blew the whistle for serve. He apologizes and says he did not hear my whistle. We get all the players on the court. This entire exchange took about 30 seconds. After all the players get back on the court, coach makes correct Libero replacement with the two middles. We let the exchange happen because of inadvertent whistle and replay. Clearly we were wrong

Oh well, chalk that one up to lesson learned. The oddity to me is that only the server and I heard my whistle I guess as the coach and R2 did not hear it. I know I blew the whistle loudly and to the same level as I had the entire match.
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Old Thu Sep 22, 2011, 12:26pm
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Nice! Doesn't the unnecessary delay come into effect then since your R2 acknowledged the request, since it's apparently a forced timeout?

So they serve, gain, lose the point, and then the time out comes in because of the last request that was acknowledged? Not too familiar with high school procedures.

Last edited by Antonio.King; Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 12:30pm.
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Old Thu Sep 22, 2011, 12:53pm
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King, by rule, I think you are correct. Of course, I have a problem with that rule since the coach actually gets the time out and because it is a time out, she can then make the correction. If we were able to ignore her time out, then her team would have been penalized for either 5 second count or illegal Libero replacement.

If I thought her time out request was made knowing she heard my whistle, I would have yellow carded her for unsportsmanlike.
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Old Tue Sep 27, 2011, 03:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigToe View Post
King, by rule, I think you are correct. Of course, I have a problem with that rule since the coach actually gets the time out and because it is a time out, she can then make the correction. If we were able to ignore her time out, then her team would have been penalized for either 5 second count or illegal Libero replacement.

If I thought her time out request was made knowing she heard my whistle, I would have yellow carded her for unsportsmanlike.
True, however, she didn't even need the timeout to make the correct exchange since your R2 acknowledged her request. So essentially, she got away with a delay. If I were the R1, I would've let the rally progress after they initiate the re-serve, then issue a time out at the next dead ball as well as sanction with a yellow card for unsportsmanlike conduct.

In this order:

- Motion everyone back onto the court
- Call captain over to the stand and your R2
- Explain why you're issuing a yellow card and that the next dead ball will result into the unnecessary delay's forced timeout. "Your coach's actions are unsportsmanlike, thus you are receiving a yellow card. The time out will be forced subsequent to the next dead ball."
- Hold up yellow card (and verbalize? I think you verbalize in HS)
- Beckon for serve
- Award the point as appropriate
- Forced time out against that team

It wouldn't be a big deal if your R2 didn't acknowledge it. Since they did, that makes it worse, so I think a YC AND the forced timeout is adequate punishment, especially since your initial beckon for serve whistle was well before she called for the TO.

Last edited by Antonio.King; Tue Sep 27, 2011 at 03:56am.
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Old Tue Sep 27, 2011, 11:24am
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Sorry, Antonio, but in this instance you are totally incorrect. We can not double penalize a team for a single infraction. The R2 screwed up by blowing the whistle for a Time-Out after the beckon for serve...BIG TIME! However, once the error was discovered, the teams return to the court immediately...by Rule 9-9-1, no unnecessary delay has occurred, so that is not an option. In addition, since we don't know what the coach was thinking, a yellow card is unwarranted...no unsporting act has taken place...the R2 simply made a major error!

Quote:
Originally posted by BigToe: After all the players get back on the court, coach makes correct Libero replacement with the two middles. We let the exchange happen because of inadvertent whistle and replay.
Even though you know that the team had wrong players on the court when you beckoned for the Libero to serve, once your R2 blew the whistle for the Time-Out request, they were allowed to correct their mistake legally. Normally, nothing can take place after the beckon for serve, except that your R2's error totally killed that. You are correct that the result is considered to be a replay and the exchanges are legal.
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Old Tue Sep 27, 2011, 11:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBear View Post
Sorry, Antonio, but in this instance you are totally incorrect. We can not double penalize a team for a single infraction. The R2 screwed up by blowing the whistle for a Time-Out after the beckon for serve...BIG TIME! However, once the error was discovered, the teams return to the court immediately...by Rule 9-9-1, no unnecessary delay has occurred, so that is not an option. In addition, since we don't know what the coach was thinking, a yellow card is unwarranted...no unsporting act has taken place...the R2 simply made a major error!


Even though you know that the team had wrong players on the court when you beckoned for the Libero to serve, once your R2 blew the whistle for the Time-Out request, they were allowed to correct their mistake legally. Normally, nothing can take place after the beckon for serve, except that your R2's error totally killed that. You are correct that the result is considered to be a replay and the exchanges are legal.
Thanks for clarifying!
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Old Wed Sep 28, 2011, 12:25pm
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Jan, I don't have the rule book in front of me but was looking at it yesterday regarding this situation. Since I blew the whistle for serve and then all these shenanigans took place before the ball was ever served, wouldn't this we a reserve as opposed to a re-play? On a reserve, no exchanges, time outs, libero replacements can take place. If this is the case, I should have not allowed the replacement after everyone came back on the court and then beckoned for serve and then issued a illegal alignment penalty.

If I remember correctly, the re-serve information is the the Serve section of the rule book.
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Old Wed Sep 28, 2011, 05:19pm
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I believe Jan is correct - will take a look at it tonight. FWIW the R2 really screwed the pooch on this one - I hope you had a serious heart-to-heart with them.......
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Old Wed Sep 28, 2011, 09:45pm
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rule 5.3.3, case book page 17, situation C after the first referee whistles and signals for the serve, the second referee sounds the whistle for a substitution.
Ruling: incorrect procedure, the ball is dead, substitution is denied, and a new whistle and signal for serve is given.

In my defense on this rule, I am substituting the word sub for time out, in either case the 2nd referee blew a whistle. By rule, you recognize the whistle, replay, sub and or time out is denied!

I do agree with MCbear, that no card is warranted in this situation. However, disagree with the fact the statement it is a free pass of allowing the subs. It is an inadverant whistle by R2, replay any corrective actions/timeouts are denied, by rule.
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Old Wed Sep 28, 2011, 11:40pm
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I agree with Illini on this one. And yes, my partner and I talked about this afterwards. He is a very good official that just made a mistake on this one. Although I know I blew the whistle with the same amount of force as I had done all match with no one having any difficulties hearing me previously, maybe it was my fault as it seemed that only the server and I new I blew the whistle.
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Old Thu Sep 29, 2011, 11:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illini View Post
rule 5.3.3, case book page 17, situation C after the first referee whistles and signals for the serve, the second referee sounds the whistle for a substitution.
Ruling: incorrect procedure, the ball is dead, substitution is denied, and a new whistle and signal for serve is given.

In my defense on this rule, I am substituting the word sub for time out, in either case the 2nd referee blew a whistle. By rule, you recognize the whistle, replay, sub and or time out is denied!

I do agree with MCbear, that no card is warranted in this situation. However, disagree with the fact the statement it is a free pass of allowing the subs. It is an inadverant whistle by R2, replay any corrective actions/timeouts are denied, by rule.
If you look in the casebook at 11.2.1 Sit. A (a/b) it says the ruling is replay - neither timeout nor substitution is granted. Only caveat is that it is talking about the receiving team requesting the timeout, not the serving team, and in the comment it notes the reason for granting a replay is the coach's actions distracted the opponents serve. Note that it does not say whether or not the R2 acknowledged the request.....

If we don't grant the substitution request by the team R in this situation, it seems to me that allowing team S to do a replacement in the same situation is giving them an unfair advantage. I think this is another area where the wording of the rules hasn't caught up with the integration of the libero.

As I said earlier, the R2 really screwed the pooch. What they should have done is ignored the request by coach S, - if the server doesn't get the serve off in the required 5 seconds, it's the coach's own fault for distracting her own server - not up to us to bail them out on this.
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Old Thu Sep 29, 2011, 09:11pm
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Ran into a similar situation tonight. During a JV best of 3 match (NHFS rules), the team that lost the first set sided out with the score tied at 23. The other team went back to serve with the wrong server. As soon as I completed my scan of the court, I whistled for serve, and at the same time, the coach, realizing that the wrong player went back to serve, asks the R2 for a timeout. His whistle was simultaneous with mine, so we whistled for a replay. Unfortunately, the coach got what she wanted --ie she got the correct server back to serve, and her team won the set and match. The coach is a referee in our chapter, and she knew that the ruling would be a replay when she asked for the timeout. This is an example of how a coach can use the rules to their advantage.
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Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 01:01am
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Toe, you need to know the definition for a replay and for a re-serve. Your situation does not meet the definition of a re-serve (see Rule 8-1-6). By Rule 9-8-1a, the R2's whistle is considered to be inadvertent.

By Rule 8-1-6, no requests for interruptions (sub, time-out, line-up check) can be accepted and Libero replacements may not take place during a re-serve. HOWEVER, your play is NOT a re-serve...by definition, it is a replay and all requests, replacements, etc. are allowed and completely legal. It is imperative to know the language of the Rules Book.

Toolman, unfortunately, your rationalization is faulty. In the casebook situation you cited, the R2 never blew a whistle acknowledging the coach's request...the server was distracted by the request and therefore the R1 called a replay while denying the coach's request because it was improper.

Illini, there were NO subs...there were replacements that happened following the R2's incorrect T-O whistle. By definition per rule, the replacements are legal. 5-3-3 SIT. C is not applicable because it concerns an improper request for substitution. In Toe's situation, both teams had left the court and it took about 30 seconds to get them back on the court. Since we now have a replay situation, the Libero replacement is completely legal.
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Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 11:51am
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Jan, thank you for the cite reference in the rulebook. Unfortunately, I do not have them on me right now but I will be sure to re-read those citations tonight.
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Old Sun Oct 02, 2011, 06:09pm
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After hours of reading and talking with fellow volleyball officials, everyong agrees with Jan's ruling. However, wrong it may seem, the coach bought her subs with a timeout and no penalty, other then the timeout.

Bigtoe, thank you for the post, it was great to be challenge by a question and find so many different responses.

Illini
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