Identifying illegal back row attacks

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BearBoy

I don't know if you VB vets have a good way to identify illegal back row player attacks......but if you do, would you share your tips?

People often ask me, "What's it like to ref volleyball? Pretty easy, right?" I always say that many parts are incredibly easy, and a few are impossible.

Identifying back row attack is impossible for me. I honestly don't even try to do it in a match, because I'm worried that I'll be trying so hard to find the back row, that I'll miss something obvious.

After reading the suggestions here, it doesn't really seem to make it any more possible. You still have to remember -- during the play -- the 6 players (half the people out there) who can't attack from in front of the attack line. (With liberos, it's only slightly less impossible -- only 4 to remember.) I readily admit that I am not capable of this.

Heck, there are many times as R2 when I can't even identify the back row of the receiving team before the serve. So how am I supposed to remember them during the play?

Personally, I find the whole thing unnecessary. Just put 6 players out there, make sure they serve in order, and let everyone just do what they do best. Making your best hitter play the back row for half the match is like making your quarterback play left tackle every other down. Does it add strategy? Sure. Does it make the playing of the game any better? Not that I can tell. It just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Identifying back row attack is impossible for me. I honestly don't even try to do it in a match, because I'm worried that I'll be trying so hard to find the back row, that I'll miss something obvious.

Personally, I find the whole thing unnecessary. Just put 6 players out there, make sure they serve in order, and let everyone just do what they do best. Making your best hitter play the back row for half the match is like making your quarterback play left tackle every other down. Does it add strategy? Sure. Does it make the playing of the game any better? Not that I can tell. It just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated.

Ouch ! It hurts to even read this. Scrapper, you definitely don't want me as a coach on your match, because if you allow an opponent's back row player to make an illegal back-row attack, I will blow a gasket, and you will be fully deserving of it. And I'll say it point blank... as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary." It is necessary on so many levels that conradict your reasoning:
1. It makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated - On the contrary, allowing faults to occur causes serious coach, team and spectator pandemonium and outrage against the officiating crew, and you create the possibility of complete loss of control of the match.
2. You severely tarnish the trust given to the officials by the sporting administration and schools/clubs. YOUR lack of desire to enforce the printed rules makes ALL OF US look bad. Can you think of a basketball official in the news lately?
3. Does it make the playing of the game any better? - More to the point, if you don't call back-row attacks, you now have 5-6 hitters against the opposing team which is adhering to the rules and allowing themselves only front-row hitters.
4. Where does it end? - Why not allow back-row blockers and Libero blockers.

Since you are so comfortable allowing, and not even bothering to look for illegal back-row attacks, then I invite you to, at least, be up-front and honest with the coaches & captains at your pre-match coin-toss. To be fair to both teams, inform them that you will not be looking for illegal back-row attacks because you find it unnecessary. I definitely want to be in the audience at that match.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

And I'll say it point blank... as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary."

I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.

That was my impression of his post as well.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.

Hi Bob. Unfortunately, you are misunderstanding what Scrapper said... he didn't say "if"... his exact words are, "I honestly don't even try to do it in a match." He "is" doing this presently. As an official opting to ignore definite faults that cause an "absolute unfair advantage" to the attacking team, he is failing at his duties, cheating the players of a fairly officiated match, and defying his officiating oath. Scrapper cannot be defended for "choosing" to poorly perform his duties... it is an ongoing learning process... and if you choose to stop improving and opt instead to allow faults to occur unpenalized, it is time to hang up the whistle, for the sake of the sport, the teams, and the officials.

[MCBear]

for me to recognize a back-row attack/back-row block and once I had done it, I kept trying to figure out how I had done it. I struggled with it for the whole fifth season (can you say 1987???).

When someone told me to keep track of the setter, things suddenly became a LOT clearer. I was able to begin working with my wheel to recognize and even to call the violation.

It was 1995, I think, when I first became aware that I needed to figure out a method of tracking all six service rotations l This was hastened by an incident in a college match where my partner was late and did not arrive until the third game of the match. I had no problems during the first two games, but during the third, there was a collision under the net. After sorting things out and be assured that neither player was injured, we played on. The visiting team was serving and, when I looked at the server, something just didn't look right to me. I asked my partner if this was the correct server and he said "yes". I still wasn't sure so I asked again and he still said, "yes?" We played on and the visitor ended up winning the third game (they had been down 2-0 before this game). I got down off the stand and went across to the table because I had been seeing match-ups during the serves that I had not been seeing all night previously. I got to the scoretable and found out that the person doing the scoring had NO IDEA how to do book! She had written some things downs during the match to this point, but had not recorded the service procedure correctly in a single game prior to this. Bottom line is that this particular game, with its wrong rotations not caught, I began learning how to track all six rotations for both teams on the court so that I would not get burned again.

[Back In The Saddle]

And how do you track all six?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by MCBear

When someone told me to keep track of the setter, things suddenly became a LOT clearer. I was able to begin working with my wheel to recognize and even to call the violation.

I have also heard about finding the setter. And I have tried in warm-ups to identify the setters, etc. I just can't hold it in my brain with the other stuff.

And I don't use a wheel. I have one, but nobody around here uses it. And I did try it last year, but I just couldn't get the hang of it. Maybe I'll try again tomorrow.

If I can keep track of it 4 years from now, I will consider that a minor miracle. But I'll try the wheel tomorrow and see if that helps.

[Back In The Saddle]

I have found the wheel very helpful, Scrappy. It's been an investment in time/effort to learn to use it. But it's paid off to this point.

Of course, you can't use it (the same way) on the ladder. But using the wheel when I'm down has helped me with recognizing setter and opposite when I'm up. And I'm getting to the point where I can often (perhaps even usually?) determine if the setter is BR or FR from where she sets up in the alignment. I realize there are other alignments I'm not familiar with yet, but it's a start.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

he is failing at his duties, cheating the players of a fairly officiated match, and defying his officiating oath.

Did you really take an officiating oath?!?! Did they ask you to raise your right hand and place your left hand on a rule book that's been passed down through 5 generations of your family? Was it a chief justice or merely a justice of the peace who administered your oath?

If you didn't have your name in your signature line, I'd say you were a drama queen. Relax a little bit and don't be so quick to pile on a fellow official.

I'm primarily a college basketball official. I work damn hard at being as good as I can be. I understand that an official gives his best effort every time out, regardless of the level of the competition.

However, this is my SECOND year of officiating volleyball. I have a total of about 40 matches under my belt. So my best effort falls well short of most people's.

So take that information for what it's worth. You can dial down your rhetoric, or I can put you on my ignore list. I couldn't care less which one happens.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Did you really take an officiating oath?!?! Did they ask you to raise your right hand and place your left hand on a rule book that's been passed down through 5 generations of your family? Was it a chief justice or merely a justice of the peace who administered your oath?

If you didn't have your name in your signature line, I'd say you were a drama queen. Relax a little bit and don't be so quick to pile on a fellow official.

I'm primarily a college basketball official. I work damn hard at being as good as I can be. I understand that an official gives his best effort every time out, regardless of the level of the competition.

However, this is my SECOND year of officiating volleyball. I have a total of about 40 matches under my belt. So my best effort falls well short of most people's.

So take that information for what it's worth. You can dial down your rhetoric, or I can put you on my ignore list. I couldn't care less which one happens.

There are officials that bust their butt to try and do their best, and then there are those that have posted on other officiating boards here that say "if you want to take up another sport, officiate volleyball, it's easy money." And, unfortunately, I've had the displeasure to have those officials as partners. Maybe you forget that I don't know who you are... you said you'd call me a "drama queen" if my signature wasn't displayed, and I actually provide plenty of information of who I am and what level I'm at... you're profile doesn't even list your real name... so how am I to know if this is your 1st, 40th or 10,000th volleyball match? But however long or short you've been officiating volleyball, it's still important to "try to improve." You talk about my over-the-top emotion... I say it's appropriately proportionate to your comments. When an official says "I honestly don't even try to do it (look for back row attack) in a match"... you didn't say that you're struggling with learning it... hey, anyone who's learning and having trouble deserves support and guidance. BUT, anyone who says they "don't even try" and then follow up with "Personally, I find the whole thing unnecessary" and then also says "it just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated" well, I have a HUGE problem with that attitude. Also, when I told you that I'd blow a gasket if I was a coach having you not even trying to call back row attacks, think about what you replied to me, you said "And I'll toss you from the gym faster than you can say "back row attack". And you'll be fully deserving of it." Do you hear yourself? You'd throw me out for being upset that you "don't even try" to look for illegal back-row-attack's? Guess what, that's your job! I'm serious when I say that you need to either change your attitude or hang up your whistle. You said "do you think I'm doing the Olympics" and I say it doesn't matter what age or performance level, an illegal back-row-attack is illegal, no matter what. And finally, to answer your question about the oath, in NFHS it's called the Officials Code of Ethics, in NCAA it's called the Code of Ethical and Professional Conduct, and in USAV it's called Philosophy of Rules and Refereeing - The Referee within this Framework. So while your mocking my comments, my defense of proper officiating, and my disdain of poor attitudes and poor officiating lacking any desire to improve, I truly don't appreciate your comments such as "Did you really take an officiating oath?!?! Did they ask you to raise your right hand and place your left hand on a rule book that's been passed down through 5 generations of your family? Was it a chief justice or merely a justice of the peace who administered your oath?" So, if you're standing so tall with your thoughtless sarcastic remarks, why won"t you publish your REAL name? I did.

[Back In The Saddle]

Lighten up, Francis.

You've been here for what, like 2 weeks and have contributed a whopping 23 posts. The last two of which seriously are overly-aggressive and aimed at a very long time contributor to this board. One, who I might add, is highly respected for the fair and open-minded approach he takes towards other posters.

You'll notice that most of the rest of us have been encouraging and have offered helpful suggestions.

You, OTOH, jump in with both barrels blazing in an attempt to put somebody you don't know, whose ethics you know nothing about, and whose history as an outstanding and committed official in other sports you are completely ignorant of down for the sins of others.

As for using real names on here... Sadly the use of real names in an internet forum has come back to haunt many people in many different ways. And the posting of one's credentials in one's signature line can just as easily come across as being pompous.

I'm just saying.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

Maybe you forget that I don't know who you are...

That's right. You have no idea who I am. And yet, your first post directed at me was to blast away at me with both barrels blazing. Very helpful.

you're profile doesn't even list your real name... so how am I to know if this is your 1st, 40th or 10,000th volleyball match?

You can't. And yet, your first post directed at me was to blast away at me with both barrels blazing.

You talk about my over-the-top emotion... I say it's appropriately proportionate to your comments.

And I say it's not. You must be a joy to work with.

When an official says "I honestly don't even try to do it (look for back row attack) in a match"...

Read the rest of the sentence, Brainiac, instead of taking things out of context.

You'd throw me out for being upset that you "don't even try" to look for illegal back-row-attack's?

Can you even read?!?! Good grief. I'd throw you out for "blowing a gasket", which I'm guessing would be excessively demonstrative. If you were simply to yell "That was back row!", you probably wouldn't get tossed. Although around my neck of the woods, yelling tends to get carded.

You said "do you think I'm doing the Olympics" and I say it doesn't matter what age or performance level, an illegal back-row-attack is illegal, no matter what.

Of course it's illegal. Would I love to be as amazingly awesome as you, and catch them all? Of course I would. But you know what? I'm not that amazingly awesome in my 2nd season.

And finally, to answer your question about the oath, in NFHS it's called the Officials Code of Ethics, in NCAA it's called the Code of Ethical and Professional Conduct, and in USAV it's called Philosophy of Rules and Refereeing - The Referee within this Framework.

So you're saying that you didn't actually take an oath. Right? That was simply more grandstanding to make your emotional rant seem more compelling.

I truly don't appreciate your comments such as "[I]Did you really take an officiating oath?!?!

Oh, oh, let me play!! Guess how many of your comments I appreciated!! Go ahead. Take a guess!!

So, if you're standing so tall with your thoughtless sarcastic remarks, why won"t you publish your REAL name? I did.

I actually have a very good reason for not using my real name, not that it's any of your business. And it wouldn't make any difference if I did use my real name, because there's no way for you to know if I really am who I say I am.

One thing I do know, however, is that you're a putz. Welcome to Ignoreville. Population, you.

[Back In The Saddle]

What would the game look like if there were no front row/back row distinction? 5-6 hitters v. 5-6 blockers? Or would it naturally evolve such that you need a variety of different skill positions to counter different kinds of attacks?

And why exactly do we have this distinction? Is it just historical accident? Or is there a deliberate reason for it? Not that I'm dissing the game for how it has evolved, just asking. I realize it would change the game, but would it make the game worse, or just different?

Coming from a basketball background, it seems natural to me for any player who is able to make any kind of play anywhere on the court.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

Ouch ! It hurts to even read this. Scrapper, you definitely don't want me as a coach on your match, because if you allow an opponent's back row player to make an illegal back-row attack, I will blow a gasket, and you will be fully deserving of it.

And I'll toss you from the gym faster than you can say "back row attack". And you'll be fully deserving of it.

as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary."

If you read my post again, you'll notice that I am not "choosing" not to call it. I freely and fully admit that I am not capable of keeping track of the necessary information. It is not a case of seeing the violation but ignoring because I disagree with the rule. I simply don't see it. And I'm afraid that if I put the necessary effort into trying to see it, that I will miss other more obvious calls.

1. On the contrary, allowing faults to occur causes serious coach, team and spectator pandemonium and outrage against the officiating crew,

Cats and dogs living together! Mass hysteria!! How many spectators even know what a back row attack is? Let alone, see it when it happens. Again, that's not WHY I'm not calling it. Just pointing out a little over-the-top emotion in your post.

2. You severely tarnish the trust given to the officials by the sporting administration and schools/clubs.

Do you think I'm doing the Olympics or something? The NCAA tournament? I'm learning with 7th and 8th graders, for crying out loud. Dial it down a little. You think JV basketball officials get every travel or illegal screen?

YOUR lack of desire to enforce the printed rules makes ALL OF US look bad.

What a ridiculous comment. It makes me look bad. It might make my partner look bad. Possibly it makes my local board look bad, if the coach is a real idiot. But how does me not recognizing a back row attack make you or MCBear, or BITS look bad? Come down off the high horse.

Where does it end? - Why not allow back-row blockers and Libero blockers?

1) If there's no front-row or back-row, then there is no Libero. 2) Answer your own question. Why not allow back-row blockers or attackers? Why not allow any player on the court to make any play that he or she can? What is the real problem with that?

To be fair to both teams, inform them that you will not be looking for illegal back-row attacks because you find it unnecessary. I definitely want to be in the audience at that match.

You need to take a deep breath and re-read my original post.