looking for rule reference for 2 situations

[oldsetter]

1. Team A's 1st pass hits the ceiling above their playing space, the ball falls from the ceiling in the vertical plane of the net. A team A and team B player make simultaneous contact with the ball that is in the vertical plane of the net.

call: Ball out on Team A?

Rule number, casebook, anything?

2. Backrow setter on Team A sets ball in the front zone, ball above the height of the net. The net travels into the vertical plane where a Team B player and Team A player simultaneous contact the ball.

call: BRA Team A?

Rule number, casebook, anything?

I think I recall reading or being tested on these questions a long time ago, but have not seen anything recently.

Thanks,

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by oldsetter

1. Team A's 1st pass hits the ceiling above their playing space, the ball falls from the ceiling in the vertical plane of the net. A team A and team B player make simultaneous contact with the ball that is in the vertical plane of the net.

call: Ball out on Team A?

Rule number, casebook, anything?

2. Backrow setter on Team A sets ball in the front zone, ball above the height of the net. The net travels into the vertical plane where a Team B player and Team A player simultaneous contact the ball.

call: BRA Team A?

Rule number, casebook, anything?

I think I recall reading or being tested on these questions a long time ago, but have not seen anything recently.

Thanks,

This involves some extrapolation, I guess. Simultaneous contacts carries the assumption that you treat each contact as if each had happened independent of each other (with appropriate faults if need be). If play continues, there is a provision in the rule to indicate who touched it last, but you rule as the contacts occurred at the same time. Therefore...

1 & 2. Treat it as if only the blocker touched it. Only legal if the attacker clearly touched it first legally.

Same concept applies if a third hit travels into the net and a joust occurs. 4 hits because you would treat it as if only the attacker touched it (and also if only the blocker touched it). In this case, the blocker touching it would not be a fault, and we'd be left with the attacker touching it causing 4 hits.

Hope this helps.

[timasdf]

Did this last night, but forgot to click the "Submit Reply" button...

I believe these to be the relevant Rule Book references:

Situation 1:

Rule: 2-2-1
A ball striking the ceiling or an overhead obstruction above a playable area shall remain in play provided the ball contacts the ceiling or obstruction on the side of the net extended that is occupied by the team that last played the ball, and the ball is legally played next by the same team.

Rule: 9-3-3c
A live ball becomes dead when:
The ball contacts the ceiling or an overhead obstruction and is not legally played next by the offending team;

Rule: 9-4-3 (possibly relevant to describe which team's touch counts)
A team shall not have more than three hits before the ball crosses the net into the opponent's playing area or is touched by the opponent. When the team's first contact is simultaneous contact by opponents, or an action to block, the next contact is considered the team's first hit.

Case Book 9.4.3 SITUATION C: (possibly relevant to describe which team's touch counts)
Two opposing players simultaneusly contact (joust) the ball as it breaks the plane of the net following the third hit by Team S.

RULING: Four-hits by Team S.
COMMENT: Because Team S used all three hits, Team R must be allowed to touch the ball before Team S.

Situation 2:

Rule 9-5-1b . . . Definitions
Attack — Any action other than a block or a serve that directs the ball toward the opponent's court. A team's third hit is always considered an attack. A completed attack occurs the instant the ball completely crosses the vertical plane of the net, or is legally contacted.

1. Spike — an attack play in which the ball is forcibly hit into the opponent's court with a one-hand overhead motion.

2. Tip — a fingertip attack on the ball which directs the ball into the opponent's court.

3. Dump — a fingertip attack most commonly used by a setter on the second hit to direct the ball into the opponent's court.

4. Overhead pass — two-hand finger action directing the ball over the net.

Rule 9-5-4
A back-row player (on or in front of the attack line), cannot contact the ball completely above the height of the net and complete an attack.

[oldsetter]

Thanks for the response guys! I was asking because I had situation 2 come up in a match (NAIA) and the coach was not happy with me explaining to the captain that it was a BRA because the contact was simultaneous and his player had to contact the ball 1st. If he protested, I would not have any idea what rule to show him in the rule book. I remember reading in a casebook 5 or 6 years ago both situations. I just can't find it now. Or maybe it was on a rules test. I have been taking the IREF tests like crazy hoping the rule will come up. It seems we are most concerned with the 4 hits or libero set situation than these 2 cases now. Still looking for something in print.
Thanks,