un dead ball

[CecilOne]

As long as we are discussing "uns", what about this?
1) Batted ball to RF corner, appears to bounce past end of fence to dead ball territory. Dead ball called. Offense says it stayed in play. Ump checks and the spot he saw was in play, so should not have been dead.

2) As above, but fielder picks up ball and starts to throw it in, then drops it when DC yells to leave it alone.

It seems nothing can be done to correct either case, but what do you think?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As long as we are discussing "uns", what about this?
1) Batted ball to RF corner, appears to bounce past end of fence to dead ball territory. Dead ball called. Offense says it stayed in play. Ump checks and the spot he saw was in play, so should not have been dead.

2) As above, but fielder picks up ball and starts to throw it in, then drops it when DC yells to leave it alone.

It seems nothing can be done to correct either case, but what do you think?

I think you prematurely ruled a dead ball and you are stuck with it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I think you prematurely ruled a dead ball and you are stuck with it.

Pretty much what I told my partner.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I think you prematurely ruled a dead ball and you are stuck with it.

But stuck with it how? Is it a ground rule double or an inadvertent call of time or an award bases as appropriate situation?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

But stuck with it how? Is it a ground rule double or an inadvertent call of time or an award bases as appropriate situation?

Two base award for batter and any runners.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Whenever we have a situation where a ball could become tangled or go through a fence, dense brush growing through a fence, past the fence into DBT, etc., we tell coaches to keep the runners going.

If we see fielders going after the ball, we let it play out (unless an obvious DB like a bounce over a fence or clearly through a gap in the fencing).

We can always send runners back if need be, but we can't send them forward (absent OBS).

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Whenever we have a situation where a ball could become tangled or go through a fence, dense brush growing through a fence, past the fence into DBT, etc., we tell coaches to keep the runners going.

If we see fielders going after the ball, we let it play out (unless an obvious DB like a bounce over a fence or clearly through a gap in the fencing).

We can always send runners back if need be, but we can't send them forward (absent OBS).

I don't coach the players, but the rest is on target.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I don't coach the players, but the rest is on target.

That's a game management thing (how a call will be made), not coaching.

[EsqUmp]

Stop telling defensive players how to play a ball and stop telling offensive players how far to run. Get your ass out there and check on the ball. That's your job. Why not do your own job instead of telling others how to do their own? This isn't game "management." It's game MISmanagement.

To anyone who says, "I don't tell the defense what to do, I just tell the offensive to keep running," why would you advise one side and not the other? Illogical. Don't tell either side.

If a coach asks, I simply say, "You can coach your players how you see fit. We will make a ruling in accordance with the rule book and ground rules." DONE!

[youngump]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Stop telling defensive players how to play a ball and stop telling offensive players how far to run. Get your ass out there and check on the ball. That's your job. Why not do your own job instead of telling others how to do their own? This isn't game "management." It's game MISmanagement.

To anyone who says, "I don't tell the defense what to do, I just tell the offensive to keep running," why would you advise one side and not the other? Illogical. Don't tell either side.

If a coach asks, I simply say, "You can coach your players how you see fit. We will make a ruling in accordance with the rule book and ground rules." DONE!

Even in professional baseball, if the ball gets into the Ivy and becomes unplayable the fielder will signal to the umpire. Then the umpire will check and if they are right kill the play. If the player fishes it out of the ivy, everyone will assume it wasn't lodged. And you surely don't mean to say they do that because they are lazy?
Is your problem with the fact that the umpire is explaining how to do it, or with the fact that this is how it is to be done?

[BretMan]

My first guess would be that a professional baseball player might know how to handle this better than a 14 year old girl.

The problem I've seen is that the "have 'em throw their hands up" instruction at the plate conference often gets misinterpreted. Sometimes it's because the coaches just don't get it and sometimes it's because the umpire did a lousy job of explaining it.

Recent real examples I've seen:

- Temporary fence with open ends at the foul lines. Batted ball bounces through the opening. Fielder gives chase and is literally weaving in and out between lawn chairs and coolers to get the ball.

Umpires are calling dead ball but the runner keeps running. Runner gets a "home run" before the ball comes back to the infield. Umpires put runner back on second (ground rule double).

Offensive coach is livid. He's complaining that the umpire told the fielders to "raise their hands if it goes out of play" and also that "if the fielder goes after the ball it will stay live". Since this fielder didn't raise her hands, plus chased the ball twenty feet past the fence, coach wants it to be a live ball and "get whatever you get".

- Batted ball to base of fence. Fielder raises hands over head, just like the plate umpire told them to. Only it's not clear if the ball is really lodged or out of play. Umpires leave the ball live as the base umpire goes out to check on it.

Before he can confirm where the ball is, the fielder reaches down and grabs it. She had paused, but with the runner still running it looked like she panicked and thought she should make a play. Runner gets to third base.

Defensive coach goes bonkers. Wants it to be an automatic dead ball since his player "raised her hands" and wants the runner put back on second base. Umpires leave the runner at third, since ball was grabbed before it was confirmed as out of play.

"But you told us..."

I don't tell them anything along these lines. When I go over the ground rules I note any boundry lines and say something like "if the ball goes in that area we'll award the appropriate bases." Let the coach tell his players what to do if it does. Leave it to the umpires to make the right ruling if it does. But no coach is going to be mad at me because I told him one thing, then seemingly ruled it another way, or because he just plain didn't understand what I told him.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

My first guess would be that a professional baseball player might know how to handle this better than a 14 year old girl.

The problem I've seen is that the "have 'em throw their hands up" instruction at the plate conference often gets misinterpreted. Sometimes it's because the coaches just don't get it and sometimes it's because the umpire did a lousy job of explaining it.

Recent real examples I've seen:

- Temporary fence with open ends at the foul lines. Batted ball bounces through the opening. Fielder gives chase and is literally weaving in and out between lawn chairs and coolers to get the ball.

Umpires are calling dead ball but the runner keeps running. Runner gets a "home run" before the ball comes back to the infield. Umpires put runner back on second (ground rule double).

Offensive coach is livid. He's complaining that the umpire told the fielders to "raise their hands if it goes out of play" and also that "if the fielder goes after the ball it will stay live". Since this fielder didn't raise her hands, plus chased the ball twenty feet past the fence, coach wants it to be a live ball and "get whatever you get".

- Batted ball to base of fence. Fielder raises hands over head, just like the plate umpire told them to. Only it's not clear if the ball is really lodged or out of play. Umpires leave the ball live as the base umpire goes out to check on it.

Before he can confirm where the ball is, the fielder reaches down and grabs it. She had paused, but with the runner still running it looked like she panicked and thought she should make a play. Runner gets to third base.

Defensive coach goes bonkers. Wants it to be an automatic dead ball since his player "raised her hands" and wants the runner put back on second base. Umpires leave the runner at third, since ball was grabbed before it was confirmed as out of play.

"But you told us..."

I don't tell them anything along these lines. When I go over the ground rules I note any boundry lines and say something like "if the ball goes in that area we'll award the appropriate bases." Let the coach tell his players what to do if it does. Leave it to the umpires to make the right ruling if it does. But no coach is going to be mad at me because I told him one thing, then seemingly ruled it another way, or because he just plain didn't understand what I told him.

If the coach is that stupid, s/he shouldn't be allowed anywhere need the game or children.