Fun time in Omaha.....

[WestMichBlue]

"either he was inexperienced or generally a timid guy"

Comments here and on McGriff's BB board suggest that many feel the ump was a wimp for not ejecting the coach, thus preventing the rest of the uglyness.

I disagree. I am neither a wimp in attitude or size (I am more often accused of having the opposite attributes), but I have never ejected a high school coach. I will use every preventative technique available to me to keep them in the game. Generally they are teachers; they are role models; they are part of the educational process; they belong on the field with their students. Of course, if they ever go way too far, then I have a way of letting them know that they are at the end of the rope and if they so much as walk too fast towards me, they are history.

On the other hand, if you want to talk Travel Team or Rec League, then you ought to see all the notches in my belt. They call me "trigger happy," my tolerance level is much less there then in the H.S. game.

WMB

[WestMichBlue]

"2. Umpires should also not try to control the fans. If they make threatening remarks, have the AD, park director, league president, whoever, remove them. Other than that, ignore the fans. Asking an irrate coach to control them is only going to make the coach and the fans louder"

Interesting reading the introductory dozen or so pages of both the NFHS and ASA Umpire's manual. The text is nearly identical. I don't know who wrote it and who copied it, or if it was a collaborative effort. But each organization will modify the text to fit it's particular principles.

Both books say you should "totally ignore remarks from the spectators." However, the NFHS books adds the following sentences: "But high school umpires must keep in mind that certain language and behavior/actions are inappropriate at any school activity. When language/behavior/actions become inappropriate the umpire should notify the site administration of the problem and let them handle the situation.

In most high school contests (in this area) the site administrator is the home team coach. Sure there is probably an AD around - somewhere - but there is probably a baseball game being played, maybe a freshman game or two, a track meet, tennis meet, or kids in the weight room or auxilary gym. So the coach takes the responsiblity.

Whether it is the home team, or the visiting team - I've never had a problem holding the coach responsible for his fans. When the situation becomes intolerable, you tell the coach to control the fans or you will forfeit the game. When the coach tells the fans they will be responsibile for a forteiture, they usually quiet down. Generally it is only a few individuals creating all the problems. The others in the stands are ashamed of the few. After the coaches warning, you now have peer pressure working in the stands. The rest of the fans will control the obnoxious ones.

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Comments here and on McGriff's BB board suggest that many feel the ump was a wimp for not ejecting the coach, thus preventing the rest of the uglyness.

... Of course, if they ever go way too far, then I have a way of letting them know that they are at the end of the rope and if they so much as walk too fast towards me, they are history.

On the other hand, if you want to talk Travel Team or Rec League, then you ought to see all the notches in my belt. They call me "trigger happy," my tolerance level is much less there then in the H.S. game.

While accepting the fact that most school ball coaches are teachers, I don't accept the fact that this means the umpire should accept more abuse from them. I also do not give ultimatums. I will remind a coach that certain acts are against the rules (e.g. arguing judgment calls) or remind him of his responsibilies (e.g. controlling the fans), but I don't give "One more word..." kind of ultimatums.

I wasn't suggesting being "trigger happy" at all (that's not good in either school ball or summer ball, IMO).

"I told Mr. Kerkman to go sit down in the dugout," Weakly said. "The coach initially refused my requests, and after telling him to sit down several more times, his fans became belligerent with me."

Bill Condon, the base umpire for the game, said Weakly asked Kerkman to return to the dugout three times. Kerkman said it was once. But protesting a judgment call is a violation of NSAA rules.

Weakly then asked Kerkman to control his fans. According to Condon, Kerkman responded: "They paid their admission, they can do whatever they want."

"That just incited them to get a little louder," Condon said.

1) Arguing a judgment call.
2) Refusing to return to his dugout when instructed to by the umpire.
3) Inciting the fans.
4) Refusing to attempt to quiet the fans as instructed by the umpire.
5) Loudly defending the fans "right" to be obnoxious.
6) Further inciting the fans.

Stop me anytime with where you would pull the trigger on this guy. I'd do it somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on the attitude of the coach at the beginning. If he came out hot and yelling (unsaid in the article, but a reasonable assumption), he'd be gone after #2, no warning.

[Skahtboi]

If he came out hot and yelling (unsaid in the article, but a reasonable assumption), he'd be gone after #2, no warning.

I thought number 2 seemed like a good place to let axe fall anyway!

[Edited by Skahtboi on Sep 10th, 2003 at 04:44 PM]

[Andy]

Originally posted by Dakota

1) Arguing a judgment call.
2) Refusing to return to his dugout when instructed to by the umpire.
3) Inciting the fans.
4) Refusing to attempt to quiet the fans as instructed by the umpire.
5) Loudly defending the fans "right" to be obnoxious.
6) Further inciting the fans.

Stop me anytime with where you would pull the trigger on this guy. I'd do it somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on the attitude of the coach at the beginning. If he came out hot and yelling (unsaid in the article, but a reasonable assumption), he'd be gone after #2, no warning.

When I originally read the article, #2 was my first thought as to where I would have dumped the guy.

I expect some griping on any close call, and may let a coach come out and discuss the call with me, but once the discussion is over and I ask him to return to the dugout, we're done.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Number 2... right after the word refusing.

Refusing is not allowed.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Dakota
[good in either school ball or summer ball, IMO).



1) Arguing a judgment call.
2) Refusing to return to his dugout when instructed to by the umpire.
3) Inciting the fans.
4) Refusing to attempt to quiet the fans as instructed by the umpire.
5) Loudly defending the fans "right" to be obnoxious.
6) Further inciting the fans.

Stop me anytime with where you would pull the trigger on this guy. I'd do it somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on the attitude of the coach at the beginning. If he came out hot and yelling (unsaid in the article, but a reasonable assumption), he'd be gone after #2, no warning. [/B]

For Hot and yelling,
For AFA and ASA number one is a good place to dump a coach.

For NFHS - agree, between 2 and 4....In Texas if coach is ejected
they must go to Austin and visit with loss of pay for however
long the visit.

glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota


Stop me anytime with where you would pull the trigger on this guy. I'd do it somewhere between #2 and #4, depending on the attitude of the coach at the beginning. If he came out hot and yelling (unsaid in the article, but a reasonable assumption), he'd be gone after #2, no warning.

Warning!?!? WARNING!?!? What warning? I don't need to give no stinking warnings!!!

I just love it when someone tries the "you can't eject me/him/her, you didn't give me/him/her their warning."

As far as I'm concerned, most get their warning when they look in the mirror in the morning and see someone of an adult age. When they choose not to act in that manner is when their presence on the field is in jeopardy.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Warning!?!? WARNING!?!? What warning? I don't need to give no stinking warnings!!!

I just love it when someone tries the "you can't eject me/him/her, you didn't give me/him/her their warning."

As far as I'm concerned, most get their warning when they look in the mirror in the morning and see someone of an adult age. When they choose not to act in that manner is when their presence on the field is in jeopardy.

Is this what is called being in violent agreement? I think I said NO warning.

[oppool]

1st year doing High school ball this year and I had game very much like the one in the story.

I was the BU 1st game of a double hitter being played in Dallas in part of town that must would call bad. About 10 min left in the game and I notice the PU talking to a fan, thought nothing of it for a moment than I see the old heave ho motion by the PU. So I figure I better get up there and find out what is going on BUT before I get to him he declares FORFEIT seems the fan told him he would get him in the parking lot after the game. Game SIT at the time Home team up and coming to bat the fan himself is sitting somewhat towards the home side but we also have the 2nd game teams waiting to play which is suppose to start at 7pm and no way to know for sure the coaches of the home team and the school AD say they have no idea who the problem fan is. This again is in area of town that doesnt matter how tough you may be because bullets and knives are usally going to win. So by time I get to HP the coaches are out screaming and everybody around is in disbelieve. I asked the coaches to calm and took the PU to the outfield and advised strongly that we finish the game because there was no way we would make it to the car at this point to change for the next game. The PU agreed after coming to his senses, so we went back and talk with the coaches informing them the situation and that we would finish the game. I told the AD to get on his phone and call the Police if the troubled fan was still in the parking lot I wanted him arrested. We finish the game it went into extra inning and it took another 1hr and 15 min to finish but by that time cool heads had prevailed and no troubles happen

And yes I know once a FORFEIT has been called you are not suppose to play any further BUT my saftey was more important at that time then any breaking of rules and besides the coaches didnt know any better anyway

Oh what fun we have

Don

[Dakota]

To those who would dump the guy at #2 no matter the attitude...

Here is what I was thinking when I said I'd maybe go on to #4 before pulling the trigger ...

Coach comes out, "Can I have TIME, Blue?"... And then proceeds to have a quiet, polite discussion asking what I saw, etc. I explain what I saw. Coach continues, still one-on-one, business-like, "But didn't you see..." Things get to where I ask him to return to the dugout, but he is persistent - polite, but persistent. I'd continue to cut him some slack.

However, I don't imagine the scenario in Omaha went anything like that...

[whiskers_ump]

Warnings are for traffic cops, judges, weather notices, and
etc.

Not for violations by coaches....







glen

[SamNVa]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
[BI disagree. I am neither a wimp in attitude or size (I am more often accused of having the opposite attributes), but I have never ejected a high school coach. I will use every preventative technique available to me to keep them in the game. Generally they are teachers; they are role models; they are part of the educational process; they belong on the field with their students.

WMB [/B]

From the news story: "(Kerkman) yelled for me (Weakly) to come over and apologize to his players for the worst case of umpiring and adult conduct that he had seen in his 20 years in the sport. He apologized to his older players for my behavior and hoped that his younger players would never see anything like that in the future."

And this is what we want the teacher's to be teaching our children? IMO, this is the most disgusting thing the coach did in the whole messed up affair. He should have been apologizing to his players for his own behavior not the umpires.

SamC

[Edited by SamNVa on Sep 11th, 2003 at 08:23 AM]

[CecilOne]

Without getting into details of this case or discussing why #3 would be my trigger, some thoughts:
What I have learned and done about spectator control is to tell the responsible coach that those spectators must be controlled or removed before the game will proceed; and stuck with it. It's probably the only ultimatum I use.
I would do everything possible, including removal of the coach, police presence, etc. to avoid punishing youth players with a forfeit for AA conduct.
I like what Andy and Dakota said:
" expect some griping on any close call, and may let a coach come out and discuss the call with me, but once the discussion is over and I ask him to return to the dugout, we're done."
"Coach comes out, "Can I have TIME, Blue?"... And then proceeds to have a quiet, polite discussion asking what I saw, etc. I explain what I saw. Coach continues, still one-on-one, business-like, "But didn't you see..." Things get to where I ask him to return to the dugout, but he is persistent - polite, but persistent. I'd continue to cut him some slack."
Am I a softy? No, I often lead the league in AA ejections.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne

I would do everything possible, including removal of the coach, police presence, etc. to avoid punishing youth players with a forfeit for AA conduct.

That is a good point, but I think there is one thing to add. If the situation truly calls for a forfeit or ejection, you shouldn't take the other players into consideration.

Granted, it is their game and every effort should be made to allow them to play. However, at some point in their life, and athletic competition is one of the prime times, these girls must be aware of the ramifications of inappropriate conduct. Letting people get away with murder so you can be a nice guy is a disservice to the game, the players and the umpires who work games behind you.

Much like the illegal pitcher who never gets called, if their team and coaches are never penalized for improper behavior, they will believe it is permissible which in the long run could directly affect the manner in which they approach the sport at any level.

JMHO,