Fun time in Omaha.....

[Andy]

This was posted on McGriff's baseball board.

Since it involves a softball game, I wanted to hear what you all have to say.

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=...8&u_sid=844650

[Rick Vietti]

It sounds like a mess but this is what softball programs have grown into. I answered another thread about umpiring baseball and softball. I made the comment that the parents for youth baseball seem to be in better control than parents for girls softball.

In this instance, the coach was out of line.

The umpire should have told the tournament director or the person trying to calm the fans of the consequence of their behavior before the TD went to talk to them.

I never forfeit a game because a fan threatens me while I am on the field. I inform the 'butt' head that I will be glad to meet him after the game with the police on the scene. I carry my cell phone with me to all venues that I am unfamilar with.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Andy
This was posted on McGriff's baseball board.

Since it involves a softball game, I wanted to hear what you all have to say.

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=...8&u_sid=844650

The coach is an idiot who admittedly doesn't know his responsibilities to the girls or the school. If he thinks his fans acted appropriately, I'm certainly glad my children will never end up living in a community which tolerates such abuse.

The school's AD should only need to talk to one person, the AD of the host school who was apparently treated no better than the umpires by his guests. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the schools on this team's schedule cancel as they have nothing to gain playing a team with this type of leadership.

The umpire was correct. He tried to be a nice guy and it didn't help. The umpire was wrong in offering to return his game fee. This is something that this coach will hang his hat on for the rest of his life. I can hear it now, "If he didn't think he was wrong, why did he offer to give back his pay?"

The umpire was also wrong in not requesting the host AD to summon the police. A man makes a threat and no one thinks to call a cop? Nope, in today's world, I believe you have to take every threat seriously regardless of how you actually feel.

It is a shame the girls must deal with this, but they don't select the coach. This will go one of two ways. The coach will settle down and learn to control his temper, or he will continue to act in a pompous manner which will eventually ruin the entire season for the team. My bet is on the latter.

I suggest that some of the blame should be borne by this coach's AD as it is apparent they hired a coach who doesn't understand there are a few more responsibilities in HS softball than handing in a line-up card and hollering at umpires. They've got to know I'll battle for them. Yeah, right!

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Rick Vietti
It sounds like a mess but this is what softball programs have grown into. I answered another thread about umpiring baseball and softball. I made the comment that the parents for youth baseball seem to be in better control than parents for girls softball.

I've done some google searching this morning in response to this statement, and based on the news reports, special reports, and newspaper columns that came up, this statement is not supported. Dominant in fan violence in youth sports were boys soccer, boys hockey, football, LL baseball, and basketball.

Anecdotal evidence around here does not support this, either. Softball parents in the school, travel and summer rec programs I have umpired for are very well behaved for the most part, and those that start getting obnoxious are very willing to quiet down with a simple warning (given through the coach, usually).

Bottom line - I disagree with the underlined parts of the above quote.

[Edited by Dakota on Sep 9th, 2003 at 12:20 PM]

[Rick Vietti]

Tom - I agree that we disagree. These are just personal observations that might be more regional and are definitely not based on any statistics.

Since boys participation in sports is greater than girls participation (based on NFHS stats), I would assume that greater instances of violence would be associated to boys sports.

I would be interested on anecdotal evidence based on officials doing multiple girl/boy sports and their local observations.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Rick Vietti
Tom - I agree that we disagree. These are just personal observations that might be more regional and are definitely not based on any statistics.

Yeah... I was just reporting the results of a google search - definitely not of any statistical merit.

I would be interested on anecdotal evidence based on officials doing multiple girl/boy sports and their local observations.

Me, too.

On the scholarship expectations front, I do think that the rush of colleges to offer female sports has resulted in parents having an unrealistic perspective on what it takes to be a Div 1 level scholarship athlete, and has resulted in parents pushing their daughters early and agressively to get on the gravey train.

They don't stop to calculate that if they took all that money they pay for travel, coaches, clinics, etc., etc., beginning at age 9 and put it in a college fund, they could easily just pay for their daughter's education!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota


On the scholarship expectations front, I do think that the rush of colleges to offer female sports has resulted in parents having an unrealistic perspective on what it takes to be a Div 1 level scholarship athlete, and has resulted in parents pushing their daughters early and agressively to get on the gravey train.

They don't stop to calculate that if they took all that money they pay for travel, coaches, clinics, etc., etc., beginning at age 9 and put it in a college fund, they could easily just pay for their daughter's education!

Tom,

I've routinely made this comment to the parents and coaches of travel ball players for at least the past six years.

Rant on!

Without exception, they deny even the possibility it could be correct. Of course, every parent and coach states that all his/her players who want scholarships get them. What they don't tell you is that quite a few are partials for a local JC or Tech and the financial aid doesn't come close to what some have paid out for their girls to play ball.

I have found that the scholarship argument is much like the 250K people who had a ticket to the opening of some new arena that only seats 60K. I have never heard a parent admit that their "investment" wasn't worth it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I strongly support parents helping their children financially when they want to take part in some sort of athletic activity, but I think the "gotta be seen to get the big scholarship" angle is similar to buying a timeshare.

If you buy thinking of it as a financial investment, you will be sorely disappointed. If you go in thinking of it as a basis to build a level of personal investment for enjoyment and pleasure and everything else as a bonus, you will be better served.

The problem is that there aren't as many "big time" scholarships available as there are parents and players chasing that carrot. Pay for the kids to play and support their effort for as long as THEY wish to pursue it. If they get a scholarship, great. If they don't, hopefully they developed into a young adult having learned the values of team work, personal responsibility, commaraderie and respect for others along the way.

Rant off!

JMHO,

[greymule]

In central NJ, every sport has had its disgraceful incidents involving fans, players, or coaches getting out of control. I used to be the "commissioner" of a Kindergarten–First Grade soccer league, and I couldn't believe how seriously some parents took those games, even though most coaches were just trying to get the kids to kick the ball in the right direction. I even had parents furious with me because I hadn't assigned their kid and his friends to the same team. (In making out the rosters, I used to spend hours distributing the talent so the games would be competitive.)

However, in my experience with baseball and softball, non-shaver baseball and men's softball far surpass older boys' baseball and girls' softball in terms of problems.

I've had several guys tell me, as they left the playing area, that they were going to meet me in the parking lot. So far, nobody actually has, though I don't doubt it will eventually happen. Of the instances I've witnessed or been personally involved in, alcohol was often a significant factor.

Last July, I had a break between SP games and went to a nearby field to watch a LL tourney from the outfield fence. I could hear a guy standing nearby muttering obscene insults toward several players on one team. I asked him what his beef was with that team. With overwhelming beer breath, he explained, in obscene terms, that his kid was on the bench, while these other, inferior players were on the field.

[WestMichBlue]

"Since it involves a softball game, I wanted to hear what you all have to say"

In my mind there are two levels of this incident that require two levels of discipline.

#1 - the coach on the field was obviously wrong - for arguing a judgment call; for refusing to return to the bench, and for failing to control his fans. If all that is true, then I believe that he should be suspended for at least two games or a week minimum. With probation when he returns.

#2 - he crossed the line of acceptable behavior when he confronted the umpire in the umpire's changing room. Official's facilities must be a safe haven that can not be violated. If that is true, the coach should be fired.

WMB

[Dakota]

WMB brought us back to the original topic...

I agree with your comments, WMB, on the primary fault being with the coach. As to the specifics of the disciplinary action that should be taken - I have no experience there, but it should be significant.

However, it seems to me from the actions & words (esp after the fact words) of the umpire that either he was inexperienced or generally a timid guy. He made several errors, in my judgment.

1) He should have dumped the coach; Not dumping the coach (who was the primary protaganist here, IMO) gives the coach's chicken----- AD a way out to do nothing.

2) He should never have offered to return his pay, even if the only reason was related to how he handled the ruckus rather than the call per se.

3) He should have had someone call the police and stayed on the field until they arrived. The arrival of the police would provide protection from the fan, avoid the coach following him, and would have given the chicken----- AD more to sweep under the rug than he probably has rug to hide.

These errors should have no bearing on how the coach is disciplined, but I'm afraid they will.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

I have found that the scholarship argument is much like the 250K people who had a ticket to the opening of some new arena that only seats 60K. I have never heard a parent admit that their "investment" wasn't worth it.

That's because, as a parent of a kid who played all those years, I will have to tell you it was worth it! I paid for the pitching lessons and the leagues and the equipment and the travel ball, and I wouldn't take a penny of it back. Why? Because I hear her now, as a young adult, talking about all the fun times and great memories she had as a kid playing.

Of course, none of us, neither she nor her mother nor myself, were ever under the delusion that she would one day win a scholarship to a D1 school. Quite the contrary. We shucked away whatever pennies we could spare, and always tried to hammer home the importance of her studies and hard work. (Remember, I am a teacher.) Fortunately, she did get a scholarship to a very good school (Baylor), but it was because of her academic prowess rather than her athletic abilities.

If you buy thinking of it as a financial investment, you will be sorely disappointed. If you go in thinking of it as a basis to build a level of personal investment for enjoyment and pleasure and everything else as a bonus, you will be better served.
The problem is that there aren't as many "big time" scholarships available as there are parents and players chasing that carrot. Pay for the kids to play and support their effort for as long as THEY wish to pursue it. If they get a scholarship, great. If they don't, hopefully they developed into a young adult having learned the values of team work, personal responsibility, commaraderie and respect for others along the way.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[SC Ump]

Okay, I confess. During the day or so that the web site was down, I was bored silly and decided to visit McGriff's again. Here is what I posted.

My opinion on the link? I thought it was appalling. The Omaha World-Herald should be castigated for using pop-up ads. It is even more disturbing than the idiot coach they were discussing.

But seriously folks...

1. I think the umpire was right to admit his mistake in not ejecting the coach soon enough. Leaving an idiot like that in the game does no one any good.

2. Umpires should also not try to control the fans. If they make threatening remarks, have the AD, park director, league president, whoever, remove them. Other than that, ignore the fans. Asking an irrate coach to control them is only going to make the coach and the fans louder.

3. If the school has a policy that their coaches can act as unsportmanlike and as stupid as they want and will not be censured unless they are ejected, there is a problem with that school's management that should be addressed quickly for the sake and safety of the players/students.

Game control is a skill that is often not taught enough to umpires during clinics. Reading information on conflict resolution would benefit anyone, especially those in umpiring.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Skahtboi

That's because, as a parent of a kid who played all those years, I will have to tell you it was worth it! I paid for the pitching lessons and the leagues and the equipment and the travel ball, and I wouldn't take a penny of it back. Why? Because I hear her now, as a young adult, talking about all the fun times and great memories she had as a kid playing.

Of course, none of us, neither she nor her mother nor myself, were ever under the delusion that she would one day win a scholarship to a D1 school. Quite the contrary. We shucked away whatever pennies we could spare, and always tried to hammer home the importance of her studies and hard work. (Remember, I am a teacher.) Fortunately, she did get a scholarship to a very good school (Baylor), but it was because of her academic prowess rather than her athletic abilities.

Okay, maybe I wasn't specific enough. My contention of the $$ not being worth it was directed toward the scholarship received (if one was received was not equal to or greater than the "investment".

As I noted in my post, I totally support parents financing their childs athletic endeavors, but for the child, not the scholarship.

[Larry Wolfe]

Mike's reply to Andy raises a good point, call the police for fan threats. SCump's and Dakota's analyses of the situation are accurate in that the umpire needed to eject the coach and not react to the fans. The umpire is a "less" experienced ump with good potential and will learn from this ordeal.

In Omaha, the umpires association has inquired into this situation and find that the newspaper article is fairly accurate because they are reporting from the umpires report filed with the state school association. Most non-interested persons at the game beleive the umpire was in a good position to make the call AND made the correct call, but while dealing with the coach, the fans reaction had time to grow and become heated. Most of the really bad conduct by the coach was after the game was ended by forfiet because of fan conduct.

At this time, I do not beleive the coach has been publicly disciplined as the school says he was not ejected and therefore the state "sit-out" requirement does not apply. (The state requires any player or coach ejected must sit out the next game of the same level, in this case varsity.)
BUT the rumor factory says that the coach got a good dressing down and umpires have had no further problems with the coach.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Larry Wolfe
At this time, I do not beleive the coach has been publicly disciplined as the school says he was not ejected and therefore the state "sit-out" requirement does not apply. (The state requires any player or coach ejected must sit out the next game of the same level, in this case varsity.)
BUT the rumor factory says that the coach got a good dressing down and umpires have had no further problems with the coach.

Just because the state doesn't require it doesn't mean a school AD with honor and integrity wouldn't recognize that the coach deserved to be ejected and therefore choose to treat him as if he had been.

From that comment, you can assume that I perceive that the school AD is without honor or integrity and therfore a good partner for this coach and his parents, who seem to be similarly ethically challenged.

The private dressing down is all well and good, but it does nothing to send a message to the team, the parents, or the community that his behavior was out of line and will not be tolerated.