a question arising from the NFHS test - 16/2.1.3b2 v 48/5.2.2b

[Jake26]

Let me start with a scenario. The batter hits a gapper to right-center, misses first base, but continues on. She touches second and as she approaches third, the relay from the outfield gets through the third baseman and into the dugout.

Rule 2.1.3b2 on Page 16 reads: If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before the dead-ball appeal can be made.

Does this Rule say the runner in our scenario is allowed to retrace her steps, touching second, touching first and then touch second, third and home, accepting her base award?

Rule 5.2.2b on Page 48 reads: When the ball becomes dead, a runner may not advance, nor return to a base that was not touched ... during a live ball if the runner had advanced to or beyond a succeeding base.

Since the runner has passed second base, a base beyond the untouched first base, does this Rule say she is not allowed to go back and touch first base before accepting her base award?

Obviously, those two rulings are in conflict with each other. I strongly suspect I am misapplying one of these Rules to the scenario in question, but I am at a loss as to which one.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[AtlUmpSteve]

It isn't a conflict when one rule that is specific limits the generalization of another rule.

5.2.2.b limits the conditions of allowable returns under 2.1.3.b.2.

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It isn't a conflict when one rule that is specific limits the generalization of another rule.

5.2.2.b limits the conditions of allowable returns under 2.1.3.b.2.

Thanks. The "limiting" concept helps explain this to my cohorts.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Jake26

Thanks.

So, what's the answer to your question? Can she legally go back to touch first base:

1. If the ball enters the dugout and THEN she touches third base?

2. If she touches third base and THEN the ball enters the dugout?

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So, what's the answer to your question? Can she legally go back to touch first base:

1. If the ball enters the dugout and THEN she touches third base?

2. If she touches third base and THEN the ball enters the dugout?

If I understand Steve properly, once the runner is at or beyond second base and the ball becomes dead, Rule 5.2.2b does not allow the runner to go back and touch first base. So, in both 1) and 2), she cannot go back.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It isn't a conflict when one rule that is specific limits the generalization of another rule.

5.2.2.b limits the conditions of allowable returns under 2.1.3.b.2.

So, in the OP, the runner may not return to 1st during the dead ball; in spite of NFHS 2.1.3.b.2. and in ASA 8.5.G Exception 2 and RS 1?

I have always had difficulty with this, so please clarify further.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

So, in the OP, the runner may not return to 1st during the dead ball; in spite of NFHS 2.1.3.b.2. and in ASA 8.5.G Exception 2 and RS 1?

I have always had difficulty with this, so please clarify further.

More accurately, they may return to touch first, but that touch is meaningless and the initial miss at first is still subject to appeal.

[Manny A]

Ok, I'm all screwed up then. I thought the point of no return happened when a runner touched an advanced base after the ball enters DBT.

Maybe I'm confusing it with this situation: R1 forgets there are less than two outs and takes off on a fly ball to center. She's between second and third when the throw following the catch goes into DBT. I think R1 is allowed to go back, touch second, touch first, and then get her two-base award. But if she touches third after the ball enters DBT, she no longer can fix her mistake. Or am I all wet?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ok, I'm all screwed up then. I thought the point of no return happened when a runner touched an advanced base after the ball enters DBT.

Maybe I'm confusing it with this situation: R1 forgets there are less than two outs and takes off on a fly ball to center. She's between second and third when the throw following the catch goes into DBT. I think R1 is allowed to go back, touch second, touch first, and then get her two-base award. But if she touches third after the ball enters DBT, she no longer can fix her mistake. Or am I all wet?

I think perhaps where you're off is that on a miss of FIRST, her status with respect to SECOND is what's important. Your question above had her either before or after THIRD --- but you get the same answer there because in both cases they are beyond SECOND.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ok, I'm all screwed up then. I thought the point of no return happened when a runner touched an advanced base after the ball enters DBT.

Maybe I'm confusing it with this situation: R1 forgets there are less than two outs and takes off on a fly ball to center. She's between second and third when the throw following the catch goes into DBT. I think R1 is allowed to go back, touch second, touch first, and then get her two-base award. But if she touches third after the ball enters DBT, she no longer can fix her mistake. Or am I all wet?

You may be thinking ASA where the player must always be given the chance to complete their base running duties including returning to touch missed bases or bases left too soon. What the runner cannot do is return to touch a missed base or base left too soon after s/he has touched the next awarded base.

This is why umpires should never announce an award until satisfied that all runners have been given the opportunity to complete their running tasks.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You may be thinking ASA where the player must always be given the chance to complete their base running duties including returning to touch missed bases or bases left too soon. What the runner cannot do is return to touch a missed base or base left too soon after s/he has touched the next awarded base.

This is why umpires should never announce an award until satisfied that all runners have been given the opportunity to complete their running tasks.

And that is what I was waiting for before replying. The rules applications differ, and I was on the road without references.

In ASA, if you hesitate to announce an awarded base when/until runners are attempting to return during a dead ball, the runner can return safely and legally.

In NFHS, if the runner is beyond the NEXT base than one missed when the ball becomes dead (whether attempting to return at that time or not), then returning to retouch has no legal affect; if properly appealed, the runner is still out (5.2.2.b). Let the runner do whatever she does before allowing the appeal (2.3.b.2); and if that discourages the appeal (the defense thinks that absolves the miss), so be it.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In ASA, if you hesitate to announce an awarded base when/until runners are attempting to return during a dead ball, the runner can return safely and legally.

In NFHS, if the runner is beyond the NEXT base than one missed when the ball becomes dead (whether attempting to return at that time or not), then returning to retouch has no legal affect; if properly appealed, the runner is still out (5.2.2.b). Let the runner do whatever she does before allowing the appeal (2.3.b.2); and if that discourages the appeal (the defense thinks that absolves the miss), so be it.

To me, this is a substantial difference between the two sanctions. So I tried going to the ASA site and pulled up the file that has the differences among ASA, NCAA, and NFHS. Despite several searches, I couldn't find this particular rule difference listed. Did I miss it or it simply wasn't included?

I don't do NCAA, but for those that do, which version applies? Or might it be something completely different?

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

To me, this is a substantial difference between the two sanctions. So I tried going to the ASA site and pulled up the file that has the differences among ASA, NCAA, and NFHS. Despite several searches, I couldn't find this particular rule difference listed. Did I miss it or it simply wasn't included?

Not only is it not listed in the differences documented on the ASA site, it is not listed in the booklet of differences that John Bennett, an NCAA umpire, publishes each year (at least in the most recent booklet that I have.)

The applicable ruling for NCAA is found in 155/12.22.7. The runner can go back and touch bases before accepting the awarded bases.

[CecilOne]

A difference does not have to be in a difference list to be a difference.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Reading NFHS rule 8.4.f.Exceptions.2 part of the quantifier is "and remains" on the base beyond that missed or left too soon.

Wonder how much affect that terms has on the application of the rule?