a question arising from the NFHS test - 16/2.1.3b2 v 48/5.2.2b

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It isn't a conflict when one rule that is specific limits the generalization of another rule.

5.2.2.b limits the conditions of allowable returns under 2.1.3.b.2.

So, in the OP, the runner may not return to 1st during the dead ball; in spite of NFHS 2.1.3.b.2. and in ASA 8.5.G Exception 2 and RS 1?

I have always had difficulty with this, so please clarify further.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

So, in the OP, the runner may not return to 1st during the dead ball; in spite of NFHS 2.1.3.b.2. and in ASA 8.5.G Exception 2 and RS 1?

I have always had difficulty with this, so please clarify further.

More accurately, they may return to touch first, but that touch is meaningless and the initial miss at first is still subject to appeal.

[Manny A]

Ok, I'm all screwed up then. I thought the point of no return happened when a runner touched an advanced base after the ball enters DBT.

Maybe I'm confusing it with this situation: R1 forgets there are less than two outs and takes off on a fly ball to center. She's between second and third when the throw following the catch goes into DBT. I think R1 is allowed to go back, touch second, touch first, and then get her two-base award. But if she touches third after the ball enters DBT, she no longer can fix her mistake. Or am I all wet?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ok, I'm all screwed up then. I thought the point of no return happened when a runner touched an advanced base after the ball enters DBT.

Maybe I'm confusing it with this situation: R1 forgets there are less than two outs and takes off on a fly ball to center. She's between second and third when the throw following the catch goes into DBT. I think R1 is allowed to go back, touch second, touch first, and then get her two-base award. But if she touches third after the ball enters DBT, she no longer can fix her mistake. Or am I all wet?

I think perhaps where you're off is that on a miss of FIRST, her status with respect to SECOND is what's important. Your question above had her either before or after THIRD --- but you get the same answer there because in both cases they are beyond SECOND.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ok, I'm all screwed up then. I thought the point of no return happened when a runner touched an advanced base after the ball enters DBT.

Maybe I'm confusing it with this situation: R1 forgets there are less than two outs and takes off on a fly ball to center. She's between second and third when the throw following the catch goes into DBT. I think R1 is allowed to go back, touch second, touch first, and then get her two-base award. But if she touches third after the ball enters DBT, she no longer can fix her mistake. Or am I all wet?

You may be thinking ASA where the player must always be given the chance to complete their base running duties including returning to touch missed bases or bases left too soon. What the runner cannot do is return to touch a missed base or base left too soon after s/he has touched the next awarded base.

This is why umpires should never announce an award until satisfied that all runners have been given the opportunity to complete their running tasks.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You may be thinking ASA where the player must always be given the chance to complete their base running duties including returning to touch missed bases or bases left too soon. What the runner cannot do is return to touch a missed base or base left too soon after s/he has touched the next awarded base.

This is why umpires should never announce an award until satisfied that all runners have been given the opportunity to complete their running tasks.

And that is what I was waiting for before replying. The rules applications differ, and I was on the road without references.

In ASA, if you hesitate to announce an awarded base when/until runners are attempting to return during a dead ball, the runner can return safely and legally.

In NFHS, if the runner is beyond the NEXT base than one missed when the ball becomes dead (whether attempting to return at that time or not), then returning to retouch has no legal affect; if properly appealed, the runner is still out (5.2.2.b). Let the runner do whatever she does before allowing the appeal (2.3.b.2); and if that discourages the appeal (the defense thinks that absolves the miss), so be it.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In ASA, if you hesitate to announce an awarded base when/until runners are attempting to return during a dead ball, the runner can return safely and legally.

In NFHS, if the runner is beyond the NEXT base than one missed when the ball becomes dead (whether attempting to return at that time or not), then returning to retouch has no legal affect; if properly appealed, the runner is still out (5.2.2.b). Let the runner do whatever she does before allowing the appeal (2.3.b.2); and if that discourages the appeal (the defense thinks that absolves the miss), so be it.

To me, this is a substantial difference between the two sanctions. So I tried going to the ASA site and pulled up the file that has the differences among ASA, NCAA, and NFHS. Despite several searches, I couldn't find this particular rule difference listed. Did I miss it or it simply wasn't included?

I don't do NCAA, but for those that do, which version applies? Or might it be something completely different?

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

To me, this is a substantial difference between the two sanctions. So I tried going to the ASA site and pulled up the file that has the differences among ASA, NCAA, and NFHS. Despite several searches, I couldn't find this particular rule difference listed. Did I miss it or it simply wasn't included?

Not only is it not listed in the differences documented on the ASA site, it is not listed in the booklet of differences that John Bennett, an NCAA umpire, publishes each year (at least in the most recent booklet that I have.)

The applicable ruling for NCAA is found in 155/12.22.7. The runner can go back and touch bases before accepting the awarded bases.