Runner does not touch plate, enters dugout

[Bluefoot]

Men's SP ASA. R1 on 1B, no outs. B2 hits long base hit to deep right field. R1 rounds third as ball is relayed from the outfield. F2 sets up facing right field with his left foot blocking edge of the edge of home plate that faces 3B. Relay throw to F2 is towards first base dugout, so F2 has to stretch to his right to make the catch, but does not move his left foot from its position on the edge of home plate. Then R1 steps on F2's left foot without touching home plate. F2 spins/sweeps around to try and tag R1, but R1 has already passed by and continues into offensive team dugout area (past fence) on first base side. I make no call until R1 has entered dugout area. F2 states "I blocked the plate!" I believe that I can't call obstruction on F2 since he had possession of the ball before R1 stepped on his foot blocking home plate. I can't call R1 safe, since he never touched home plate. I can't call R1 out on the tag, since F2 never tagged him. Once R1 passes the fence I call R1 out for entering the dugout area. Of course, offensive team is not happy with the call.

Is my reasoning in making this call correct?

[CecilOne]

Reasoning ok, but I don't agree with it being abandonment as opposed to waiting for the defense to appeal; because we consider passing a base the same as touching unless there is an appeal. I don't see "I blocked the plate!" as an appeal, even if true.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Bluefoot
Men's SP ASA. R1 on 1B, no outs. B2 hits long base hit to deep right field. R1 rounds third as ball is relayed from the outfield. F2 sets up facing right field with his left foot blocking edge of the edge of home plate that faces 3B. Relay throw to F2 is towards first base dugout, so F2 has to stretch to his right to make the catch, but does not move his left foot from its position on the edge of home plate. Then R1 steps on F2's left foot without touching home plate. F2 spins/sweeps around to try and tag R1, but R1 has already passed by and continues into offensive team dugout area (past fence) on first base side. I make no call until R1 has entered dugout area. F2 states "I blocked the plate!" I believe that I can't call obstruction on F2 since he had possession of the ball before R1 stepped on his foot blocking home plate. I can't call R1 safe, since he never touched home plate. I can't call R1 out on the tag, since F2 never tagged him. Once R1 passes the fence I call R1 out for entering the dugout area. Of course, offensive team is not happy with the call.

Is my reasoning in making this call correct?

No, it is not. In ASA, a runner who has passed a base is to considered as touching it pending proper appeal.

The proper mechanic by a PU in this situation is allow the play to occur. Hesitate momentarily to see if the catcher attempts to follow the runner with a tag or the runner tries to return and touch the plate. If that happens, you allow the play to continue and make the appropriate call.

If that doesn't happen, rule the runner safe as he has met the standard prescribed in the rules. The runner is still subject to proper appeal by the defense.

This is covered very well in ASA POE 1.I and General Plate Mechanics-Appeal at the Plate on page 219 of the rule book.

[Dakota]

Like Cecil, I agree your reasoning is correct, but your call is not. A runner is only out for entering DBT if the runner does NOT advance to the next base, or leaves the base he is on to enter the dugout. In ASA, a missed base is considered legally acquired unless appealed. For your situation, ASA provides specific guidance - you should hesitate briefly waiting for either the runner to touch the plate or the catcher to tag the runner, and then signal SAFE.

You can't call this runner OUT merely for entering the dugout after missing home plate. If you could, there would hardly ever be any reason for the defense to appeal a missed base at home.

With little kids ball, I would consider F2's statement to be a proper appeal (once TIME has been called). Perhaps for adults you'd want him to be more specific.

[Timmy]

Originally posted by Dakota
Like Cecil, I agree your reasoning is correct, but your call is not. A runner is only out for entering DBT if the runner does NOT advance to the next base, or leaves the base he is on to enter the dugout. In ASA, a missed base is considered legally acquired unless appealed. For your situation, ASA provides specific guidance - you should hesitate briefly waiting for either the runner to touch the plate or the catcher to tag the runner, and then signal SAFE.

You can't call this runner OUT merely for entering the dugout after missing home plate. If you could, there would hardly ever be any reason for the defense to appeal a missed base at home.

With little kids ball, I would consider F2's statement to be a proper appeal (once TIME has been called). Perhaps for adults you'd want him to be more specific.

Are there standards for appeal language? Magic words? I've had players run up to me screaming "Blue, he missed third". Well, maybe he did, what's your point? Eventually they understand that I want them to state that they are appealing that a specific runner missed a specific base. Is this wrong; since it's obvious that they want a ruling on a particular action is that enough to treat it as an appeal or am I correct in being picky about the language?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Timmy
Are there standards for appeal language? Magic words? I've had players run up to me screaming "Blue, he missed third". Well, maybe he did, what's your point? Eventually they understand that I want them to state that they are appealing that a specific runner missed a specific base. Is this wrong; since it's obvious that they want a ruling on a particular action is that enough to treat it as an appeal or am I correct in being picky about the language?

No magic words. No, you are not correct in being picky about language (IMO).

For an appeal to be "proper," there are 2 parts: mechanics and communication. Live ball appeals mechanics are to have the ball and to touch the base or tag the runner. The communication part is that the intent of this action must be clear. Example: BR misses first, throw is late, F3 catches the throw while touching the base. Mechanics are correct for a live ball appeal, but the communication is not - this is probably just a late throw, rather than an appeal for BR missing the base. F3 would need to communicate in some way that she was appealing. There is no magic to the "some way" - only that the umpire gets the message.

Dead ball appeal mechanics are call TIME if necessary. If the ball is dead as a result of the play (e.g. thrown out of play), allow runners to complete any base running duties. Communications is any infielder verbally stating the appeal. Again, no magic words, just getting the message through to the umpire.

If there is room for ambiguity (e.g. multiple runners, or multiple bases passed), the appeal communications must be clear enough that you know which runner, which base, etc. Allow no guessing.

A catcher saying "I blocked her from the base" would mean (to me), "Mr. Umpire, I appeal the runner missing home plate" in the situation described.

If a player ran up to me during a live ball screaming, "Blue, he missed third," I have an improper live ball appeal. During a dead ball, I have a runner declared out (assuming the player is an infielder and is correct).

[Edited by Dakota on Aug 28th, 2003 at 11:52 AM]

[Andy]

It looks like your question has been answered. I would just like to add one more thing.

Once the runner entered the dugout, they can no longer attempt to return and touch home.

If there is no appeal (FWIW..I wouldn't accept the catcher's statement as a proper appeal) and a pitch is thrown to the next batter, the run counts and the oppportunity for appeal is lost.

[Bluefoot]

When F2 stated that he blocked the plate, I understood it to mean that he knew that R1 had not touched the plate. F2 also knew that he had not tagged R1 out. F2 looked for R1 to tag him, but R1 was already beyond fence. (The distance from home plate to the backstop/dugouts is the shortest of all of the fields I work, thus R1 was in dugout immediately) So I improperly called R1 out for leaving the field of play, since F2 could no longer tag him out, when I should have called him out based on F2's verbal "appeal". Thanks for the feedback.

I don't think players know nor understand the difference between proper live and dead ball appeals. I myself did not about it until I became an umpire and read the book. Are we ever supposed to provide any instruction or help to a team when it is making an improper appeal?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Bluefoot
Are we ever supposed to provide any instruction or help to a team when it is making an improper appeal?

No, because that would be aiding the defense.

However, you can ask questions to save time. For example, little kids ball, coach is screaming for his players to appeal. Players aren't getting the coach's instructions. Now, you could just let this continue until the coach finally gets through, or you could ask a nearby player, "What is your coach saying?"

Of course, this assumes a dead ball & situation where the offense may not legally return to retouch. Since you don't want to take away the offensive coach's opportunity to begin screaming at his runner to return and retouch, and miss the battle of "which team gets it first!"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Bluefoot
When F2 stated that he blocked the plate, I understood it to mean that he knew that R1 had not touched the plate. F2 also knew that he had not tagged R1 out. F2 looked for R1 to tag him, but R1 was already beyond fence. (The distance from home plate to the backstop/dugouts is the shortest of all of the fields I work, thus R1 was in dugout immediately) So I improperly called R1 out for leaving the field of play, since F2 could no longer tag him out, when I should have called him out based on F2's verbal "appeal". Thanks for the feedback.

I don't think players know nor understand the difference between proper live and dead ball appeals. I myself did not about it until I became an umpire and read the book. Are we ever supposed to provide any instruction or help to a team when it is making an improper appeal?

No, but that doesn't mean the following conversation cannot take place:

F2 states "I blocked the plate!"
Ump: That you did and legally.
F2: But he has to touch the plate.
Ump: Okay, what are you saying?
F2: He never touched the plate.
Ump: Close enough, runner is out for missing home base.

Okay, so it may not happen exactly like that, but you get the point.

[mo99]

A good mechanic for the plate umpire is to give a safe signal with a verbal no tag.Then if play is appealed for missing the plate, you make you out or safe call.

Jeff

[kono]

Originally posted by mo99
A good mechanic for the plate umpire is to give a safe signal with a verbal no tag.Then if play is appealed for missing the plate, you make you out or safe call.
Jeff

Ummm... I believe the correct mechanic at home plate is to do and say nothing. Any other base - signal safe and let them figure it out.

-Kono

[mo99]

Kono: That is the new mechanic instituted by the NCAA this past year which we also use in our High School Association.Their reasoning at the clinic is to rule on the missed tag giving the safe signal with a verbal "no tag".The responsibility for appealing the missed plate lies on the defense.

Jeff

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by kono

Ummm... I believe the correct mechanic at home plate is to do and say nothing. Any other base - signal safe and let them figure it out.

-Kono

That would be incorrect in ASA and is specifically addressed as noted earlier in the post. You signal and call "safe" because in accordance with the rule, that is just what the runner is.

Verbalizing "no tag", in my mind, is useless as it may give the catcher the impression that the reason he is safe is because he missed the tag and the player touched the plate and give up on the play immediately and that is not the point of the mechanic.

JMHO, but I'll stick with ASA's mechanic.

[Dakota]

This situation is a double mistake, and no mechanic will be completely avoid being misunderstood by one team or the other.

However, I think the ASA mechanic is the best overall compromise to try to give the call on the legal situation without tipping off either team. It's not perfect, but it's better (IMO) than the others I've seen / read about.

You hesitate briefly to allow the play to complete, and then make the call on the play. The most common complaint I've heard from coaches on the mechanic is it gives the offense a false sense of security, but in reality, it is no different than any other call with a missed base.

Any appeal is a separate call.