HBP strike

[CecilOne]

FP -ASA, NFHS, USSSA - please id answer for any or all

Basic info: Pitch passes through the strike zone and hits the batter, not in the strike zone. Batter never was in the zone.

Is it a HBP or dead ball strike?
Does it matter if the batter is completely in the batter box?

More questions later.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

FP -ASA, NFHS, USSSA - please id answer for any or all

Basic info: Pitch crosses the plate and hits the batter, not in the strike zone. Batter never was in the zone.

Is it a HBP or dead ball strike?
Does it matter if the batter is completely in the batter box?

More questions later.

So a batter lifted up their arm above their armpit and was hit by the ball that was over the plate, but not in the zone?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

So a batter lifted up their arm above their armpit and was hit by the ball that was over the plate, but not in the zone?

see OP edit in bold

[tcannizzo]

Matrix

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

FP -ASA, NFHS, USSSA - please id answer for any or all

Basic info: Pitch passes through the strike zone and hits the batter, not in the strike zone. Batter never was in the zone.

Is it a HBP or dead ball strike?
Does it matter if the batter is completely in the batter box?

More questions later.

ASA
Strike - 7.4.A
The HBP is ignored based upon 8.1.F

[MD Longhorn]

This is a Softball 101 question and I know you know the answer. A ball that strikes the batter is a dead ball. If the pitch was a strike (for ANY reason), it's a dead ball strike. If not, and other criteria that I also know you're aware of are met, it's a HBP.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA
Strike - 7.4.A
The HBP is ignored based upon 8.1.F

I agree with your interpretation after reading the rule.

Since the HBP is ignored, does this mean the ball is still live?
What if this was strike 3? Do we have an uncaught strike three?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is a Softball 101 question and I know you know the answer. A ball that strikes the batter is a dead ball. If the pitch was a strike (for ANY reason), it's a dead ball strike. If not, and other criteria that I also know you're aware of are met, it's a HBP.

Yes, I know, but having heard a recent conversation that some questioned it, I thought it might be good discussion.

Would you expect a problem explaining it to the OC?

Especially if the strike not announced before the batter is hit?


P.S. -- As part of teaching new umpires, always looking for better and easier ways to present things.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Yes, I know, but having heard a recent conversation that some questioned it, I thought it might be good discussion.

Would you expect a problem explaining it to the OC?

Especially if the strike not announced before the batter is hit?


P.S. -- As part of teaching new umpires, always looking for better and easier ways to present things.

I differ in teaching this, as I do NOT say the HBP is ignored. The batter WAS hit by a pitch, and it IS a dead ball.

The difference is that there are three possible outcomes from HBP; HBP does not automatically result in an awarded base as is assumed by most.

1) HBP ruled a strike; dead ball, add strike to count, if #3, batter is out.

2) HBP ruled a ball and (depending on ruleset) batter failed to attempt to avoid, and/or ball not completely in batter's box; dead ball, add ball to count, if #4, batter awarded a walk.

3) HBP ruled a ball and (depending on ruleset) ball completely in batter's box and batter made any required effort to attempt to avoid; dead ball, batter awarded first base.

So, in my version of teaching, the HBP isn't ignored at all, it has multiple possible results.

And, to the other question, it doesn't matter what or when you announce the result, you will get feedback on anything in category #1 and #2. It's your job to explain the rule, the result, and move on.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I differ in teaching this, as I do NOT say the HBP is ignored. The batter WAS hit by a pitch, and it IS a dead ball.

The difference is that there are three possible outcomes from HBP; HBP does not automatically result in an awarded base as is assumed by most.

1) HBP ruled a strike; dead ball, add strike to count, if #3, batter is out.

2) HBP ruled a ball and (depending on ruleset) batter failed to attempt to avoid, and/or ball not completely in batter's box; dead ball, add ball to count, if #4, batter awarded a walk.

3) HBP ruled a ball and (depending on ruleset) ball completely in batter's box and batter made any required effort to attempt to avoid; dead ball, batter awarded first base.

So, in my version of teaching, the HBP isn't ignored at all, it has multiple possible results.

And, to the other question, it doesn't matter what or when you announce the result, you will get feedback on anything in category #1 and #2. It's your job to explain the rule, the result, and move on.

Thanks for the detail.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I differ in teaching this, as I do NOT say the HBP is ignored. The batter WAS hit by a pitch, and it IS a dead ball.

The difference is that there are three possible outcomes from HBP; HBP does not automatically result in an awarded base as is assumed by most.

1) HBP ruled a strike; dead ball, add strike to count, if #3, batter is out.

2) HBP ruled a ball and (depending on ruleset) batter failed to attempt to avoid, and/or ball not completely in batter's box; dead ball, add ball to count, if #4, batter awarded a walk.

3) HBP ruled a ball and (depending on ruleset) ball completely in batter's box and batter made any required effort to attempt to avoid; dead ball, batter awarded first base.

So, in my version of teaching, the HBP isn't ignored at all, it has multiple possible results.

And, to the other question, it doesn't matter what or when you announce the result, you will get feedback on anything in category #1 and #2. It's your job to explain the rule, the result, and move on.

Of course, Steve is correct. I was using HBP more as a generic term usually relating to an award of the base. And it is a matter of fact that any pitch which contacts any part of the person or uniform of a batter is a dead ball without exception.

[Insane Blue]

2 years ago in the 16 Champions Cup the Championship game ended on a checked swing HBP. Plate umpire call's Dead Ball Strike - Ball Game.
It was a 3 man crew The PU and Myself headed straight for the exit 3U stayed and was trying to throw the PU under the bus. 3U got chewed out by the UIC for this.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

2 years ago in the 16 Champions Cup the Championship game ended on a checked swing HBP. Plate umpire call's Dead Ball Strike - Ball Game.
It was a 3 man crew The PU and Myself headed straight for the exit 3U stayed and was trying to throw the PU under the bus. 3U got chewed out by the UIC for this.

Specifics please for "3U stayed and was trying to throw the PU under the bus"

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Specifics please for "3U stayed and was trying to throw the PU under the bus"

3U was saying to the coach that he did not think that the batter swung and that the batter should have been awarded first base. If the plate umpire had asked for help it would have been my call and she definitely offered at the pitch. When 3U finally got off the field he was trying to get me to agree with him that PU got it wrong.

The interesting thing about all of this is that both the of my partners where reprimanded for fraternizing with a coach in the Umpire parking area the day before and everyone was told that both of them where being sent home because of this. I was very surprised to see them on Sunday and really surprised that they had the Championship game.

[Linknblue]

I've read this entire subject/post and still can't picture the scenario of ball passing thru strike zone and hitting a batter out of the strike zone. What am I missing?

How does the ball get out of the zone and "hit" the batter? Gawd, I must be getting old.

Is the batter on the edge of the plate with their body but still outside the zone (crowding)? If this is the case "any" movement would seem to put the batter "in" the zone or "further away" from the zone based on what they do.....swinging, bunting, trying to get out of the way, whatever.

Splain please.......give me the scenario where this happened.