Obstruction-rundown

[jmkupka]

Think I tanked this one...
Men's modified. No outs. R1 on 1B. Grounder to F8. R1 rounds 2B and is OBS by F6. F8 fires to 3B and starts a rundown. After a while, R1 is tagged out sliding into 2B. "Dead ball, obstruction, I have the runner protected right here (2B)"

R2 is standing on 2B at the time. Fielder tags R1 (I make my call), then R2. I call R2 out because the lead runner owns the base.

How can I call an out on a runner when I just called dead ball?

I thought it was just bad base running by R2, since the rundown gave him time to see R1 might have to come back to 2B.

Is this textbook "another runner having been affected by the OBS" and send him back to 1B?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Think I tanked this one...
Men's modified. No outs. R1 on 1B. Grounder to F8. R1 rounds 2B and is OBS by F6. F8 fires to 3B and starts a rundown. After a while, R1 is tagged out sliding into 2B. "Dead ball, obstruction, I have the runner protected right here (2B)"

R2 is standing on 2B at the time. Fielder tags R1 (I make my call), then R2. I call R2 out because the lead runner owns the base.

How can I call an out on a runner when I just called dead ball?

I thought it was just bad base running by R2, since the rundown gave him time to see R1 might have to come back to 2B.

Is this textbook "another runner having been affected by the OBS" and send him back to 1B?

Yes, you put BR back on first in this scenario.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Yes, you put BR back on first in this scenario.

Why? If it were the other end of the run-down (3B), you advance the runner to home and award the OBS runner the base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why? If it were the other end of the run-down (3B), you advance the runner to home and award the OBS runner the base.

Is it possible you read the OP wrong?

He's got the lead runner protected to 2nd base.

If he had the lead runner protected to 3rd, it would be different, BR would stay at 2nd.

[jmkupka]

Completely agree that I blew the opportunity to get both parts of the OBS correct, but is there any validity to the thought that R2 had plenty of time to decide to return to 1B?

If not, and if R2 knows the OBS rule (better than I do, apparently), he knows that since R1 is protected between the two bases, he (R2) has a free trip to 2B, and the worst that could happen is getting sent back to 1B.

That being said, since R2 is "a runner also affected by the OBS", could F5 conceivably break off from the rundown (for whatever reason), and attempt to put out R2 coming into 2B, and have R2 be protected?

Or am I just burned out from a loong season?

[Altor]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

he (R2) has a free trip to 2B, and the worst that could happen is getting sent back to 1B.

No he doesn't have a free trip. R2 is not protected. If the defense gives up on the rundown and tags R2 between bases, he's out. Or, say R1 makes it back to 2B, and the defense tags R2 while both are standing on the base, R2 is out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Is it possible you read the OP wrong?

He's got the lead runner protected to 2nd base.

If he had the lead runner protected to 3rd, it would be different, BR would stay at 2nd.

No, I read it correctly. I'm just asking why? If the rulebook scenario moves an undeserving runner forward, why would they move a trailing runner backward?

[EsqUmp]

Out of curiosity, how "big" was the obstruction at 2nd base and how far from 3rd base was the lead runner when he pulled up to start going back toward 2nd base?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, I read it correctly. I'm just asking why? If the rulebook scenario moves an undeserving runner forward, why would they move a trailing runner backward?

I'm sure this was a rhetorical question, but no one else seems ready to answer.

The primary thought process in the obstruction rule is to put the obstructed runner where he/she would have ended up if there had been no obstruction. Other runners are a secondary consideration, and were probably not even considered in older versions of the rule, rather became involved with decades of tweaking when "what if" situations came true at ASA Nationals.

If you are going to move the obstructed runner up, it is apparent you have to push a lead runner up. Maybe not how the play would have ended if no obstruction, maybe even would have put two runners on a base resulting in an out; but if your primary thought is the obstructed runner, then it seems obvious that runner pushes the lead runner when awarded the next base.

Using the same primary philosophy, if you have to move the obstructed runner back because the forward base is undeserved, then you have to push trailing runners back, too. After all, it's certainly better than the out that you judge would have been the result without obstruction, and you have protected that runner from the out, just not to the forward base.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Think I tanked this one...

....Is this textbook "another runner having been affected by the OBS" and send him back to 1B?

You answered your own question......

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Think I tanked this one...
Men's modified. No outs. R1 on 1B. Grounder to F8. R1 rounds 2B and is OBS by F6. F8 fires to 3B and starts a rundown. After a while, R1 is tagged out sliding into 2B. "Dead ball, obstruction, I have the runner protected right here (2B)"

R2 is standing on 2B at the time. Fielder tags R1 (I make my call), then R2. I call R2 out because the lead runner owns the base.

How can I call an out on a runner when I just called dead ball?

I thought it was just bad base running by R2, since the rundown gave him time to see R1 might have to come back to 2B.

Is this textbook "another runner having been affected by the OBS" and send him back to 1B?

This is what I understand about the play.


R1 was the obstructed runner, who was tagged out between the bases he was obstructed between. The ball is dead, and R2 is awarded the base you feel he would have attained had the obstruction not occurred. R2 advanced to second during the rundown and had legally attained 2b well the rundown was in progress.

I have R2 going back to 1b on this play? Why? If the R2 had not been obstructed and was tagged out sliding back into second, R1 would have legally attained the base. When you are awarding the base to R2 as a result of the obstruction, you need to put the R1 back to first base because at that point he has been affected by the obstruction.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I have R2 going back to 1b on this play? Why? If the R2 had not been obstructed and was tagged out sliding back into second, R1 would have legally attained the base. When you are awarding the base to R2 as a result of the obstruction, you need to put the R1 back to first base because at that point he has been affected by the obstruction.

How was the trailing runner affected by the OBS? The umpire has judged that had the OBS not occurred, the runner would have returned to 2B anyway, so the trailing runner would have been tagged out whether there was OBS or not

[jmkupka]

Irish,
so you're saying it was right to call R2 out? I'm lost.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Irish,
so you're saying it was right to call R2 out? I'm lost.

No. He's not. To be clear there are two plays going on here (mostly my fault, so let me try and clarify.) As I understand it here's where the discussion stands.

In your play the obstructed runner was put out. Nothing can ever happen after that and placement of the runners is the only question. The rules seem to require you to put the obstructed runner in the correct spot (2b) and then move the other runner back. Irish doesn't like that as it's inconsistent but agrees it is the rule.

In the other play, the obstructed runner is not put out. This leaves R2 standing as a second runner on second base. He can be put out. People's position on this is a little murkier but Irish seems to be saying that R2 wasn't affected by the obstruction so just call R2 out and move on.

[IRISHMAFIA]

All I'm saying is that the trail runner was not affected by the OBS therefore gets no protection if the umpire had determine the proper award for the OBS was 2B