Illegal Pitches and when's enough?

[Linknblue]

Worked an ASA tournament this weekend. 12U A level. Pretty good ball all weekend with a few exceptions.

Had one young lady pitching and she was doing the little "hop" off the pitcher's plate "every" pitch instead of toe down and dragging. I know it's and IP............but..............coach was told two or three times that it was illegal and he agreed but said she's young and has to work through it, he was going to leave her in the game. Nonsense but that's what he said.

Opposing coach wants it called. It's called a few times and results in a couple of runs being scored.......but the pitching technique never changed. Didn't look like she even tried to change it..........or maybe just couldn't. I don't know.

My partner and I just simply came to the conclusion that we just couldn't call it every pitch. The game would turn into a fiasco fans having fits about letting the girls play, us looking like complete idiots for calling the pitches when no real advantage was being gained.

We simply lived with it, the other team stopped griping when we asked him if he wanted it called every pitch and the game continued on. The illegal pitcher lost the game............but, what would you guys have done? I'm curious.

Thanks

[MD Longhorn]

League ball or tourney?

You said A ball - I would think that by this point in the season we've gotten rid of those pesky illegal habits. Call it when you see it. At some point the coach is going to pull her. Not fair to the other team to let the girl do stuff they aren't supposed to be able to do. Call it early and often. Call it every pitch with no one on base if you have to.

I can see some leniency early in the season in league ball. Or at C levels, etc.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

...us looking like complete idiots for calling the pitches when no real advantage was being gained.

Ugh, I hate that argument.

Where does it say IPs should only be called when an advantage is gained? Where is the advantage gained when a pitcher puts her hands together, separates them to scratch her nose, and then puts them back together? Does a pitcher really gain an advantage when she interrupts her pitching motion?

You said tournament play, right? You really can't ignore stuff at that point. Rec ball, yeah, I can see it there. But these girls should know what they're doing especially at A level.

[MD Longhorn]

I agree with Manny...

But I would add that not having to pitch with your feet correctly DOES give you an advantage.

[Little Jimmy]

Others have said if before but I really think it's passed time to rethink the leap rule. Move the plate back a few feet and let them be airborne if they wish. There have been discussions on this board in the past about the physics/advantage/disadvantage of airborne vs drag. And as far as I'm concerned, when Fed ( and I believe ASA and others) said a few years back that we can take the depth of the divit in front of the pitching plate in mind, they were acknowledging a fact of the game.

As to your original question, I would have used the divit/hole defense if possible, but if that was too much of a stretch then I guess Id call them all and take the s**tstorm that came my way.

[RKBUmp]

First off, as others have already commented nothing in the pitching rules say anything about gaining an advantage. And then, how do you know if she was gaining an advantage or not?

Had a high school girl a couple of years ago in an early season tournament that was doing a little hop out and throw. Talked to coach during her warmups, told him to go out and tell her to drag the foot. First pitch illegal. 2nd pitch illegal. Coach comes out and starts the, but she never gets called illegal, and she is the #1 pitcher on her club team. He goes out and talks to her again. Now she does tries to drag except she cant get the ball anywhere near the plate. She was either illegal throwing strikes, or legal and couldnt get the ball over the plate. If she hadnt been forced to throw legally how would anyone have known she couldnt get the ball over the plate using a legal delivery? As it turned out, the opposing coach came out and told me they just wanted to play ball and he didnt care if she was legal or not. At that point I agreed to let it go. But, I did talk to another umpire later in the season who did one of the illegal pitchers games and he said she was still doing the exact same thing.

[Linknblue]

Guys,
I know the pitches were illegal. I know I and my partner could have called every pitch. Advantage, disadvantage is really I suppose irrelevant to my question. If a coach "refuses" to remove a pitcher after you've called 10 illegal pitches and it's cost him runs it puts umpires in a funky position. I know in the rule of rules that IP are supposed to be called. After we called about 10 the fans started in with "Quit taking the game away, allow the girls to play!" and all the other crap that goes along with being protective of their kid......they don't understand "all" the nuances that go into pitching.

My question is what would you guys do in a "fun" A level tournament (Not a qualifier in any way.)

I didn't like the position the coach put us in but I can also see the other side where "It's kid's softball and they're kids" angle. I supposed we could have taken the hard line and of course become the "ruinators" of the afternoon for probably 60 plus kids and adults.

Would the hard line be the course you would all take? Call every pitch and turn a game into a fiasco?

As it was the game ended 3 to 0 and we gave the winning team 2 of the 3 runs. Why only 2 runs......we were trying to drive a point home....albiet being selective when we called IP a time or two.

Go ahead, I'm ready for your wrath.

[3afan]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

.... Move the plate back a few feet and let them be airborne if they wish. ....

yes!!!

[RKBUmp]

If they decide to change the rules thats fine, until then the umpires job is to call the game per the rules as they exist.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Worked an ASA tournament this weekend. 12U A level. Pretty good ball all weekend with a few exceptions.

Had one young lady pitching and she was doing the little "hop" off the pitcher's plate "every" pitch instead of toe down and dragging. I know it's and IP............but..............coach was told two or three times that it was illegal and he agreed but said she's young and has to work through it, he was going to leave her in the game. Nonsense but that's what he said.

Opposing coach wants it called. It's called a few times and results in a couple of runs being scored.......but the pitching technique never changed. Didn't look like she even tried to change it..........or maybe just couldn't. I don't know.

My partner and I just simply came to the conclusion that we just couldn't call it every pitch. The game would turn into a fiasco fans having fits about letting the girls play, us looking like complete idiots for calling the pitches when no real advantage was being gained.

We simply lived with it, the other team stopped griping when we asked him if he wanted it called every pitch and the game continued on. The illegal pitcher lost the game............but, what would you guys have done? I'm curious.

Thanks

I will submit the argument that there was an advantage being gained, otherwise she would be pitching legally. And while I am not a fan of the women's/girl's version of the pitching rule in some areas, as an umpire I have to call the IP whenever I see it.

[Linknblue]

Thanks guys. I've got a consensus. I see the point of calling "all" illegal pitches. I called them, and I was PU, so didn't see everyone cuz of concentration on other things but I got two runs calling illegals and nothing changed.........Gawd, that's ugly when you know you're right and everyone is screaming and yelling.

I'll just have to "ball up" and call it next time and live with the sh...storm I guess. Then I'll come back and post what happened.

Thanks

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Thanks guys. I've got a consensus. I see the point of calling "all" illegal pitches. I called them, and I was PU, so didn't see everyone cuz of concentration on other things but...

Whoa Nellie, hang on. This young lady was leaping during her pitches, and as PU you were calling them? In the OP, you said you had a partner. Why were you and not him making those calls? IPs involving the feet are the BU's responsibility.

[Linknblue]

Cuz he refused to call every pitch IP. He was the one that asked the OC if that was what he wanted, every pitch to be called. OC kinda shut up but..........that's what I was into.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Call it when you see it, absolutely. Can it get ridiculously out of control? The calls, NO; but the game can be. When it does get ridiculous to the point of the game taking three hours and is lopsided, you talk to the OC and negotiate the situation.

When they understand the 20 run lead may go for naught if the game doesn't reach the minimum number of innings, they may get over the point that you intend to finish the game and if that means overlooking some IPs, so be it.