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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 14, 2014, 05:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoRedSox View Post
Manny, I have seen it serveral times while during tournments in MD, why they do it I have do idea, I guess I shoud ask next time.
Must be some of those MD umpires.

It may be one of those old school things that umpires remember seeing when they played ball as kids, kinda like showing two fists with a full count, and have never been told we don't do that anymore.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 14, 2014, 07:46am
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Quote:
Must be some of those MD umpires.
Hold on now, no need for a border war .

I've probably worked in 10 or more states over the years and this practice shows up everywhere. No rhyme or reason. I agree with BretMan about some umpires wanting to interject themselves. When I'm behind the plate and I see my partner hovering around the new pitcher, I know what he's about to do. I want to wave a red flag and tell him to get back to his position in the field.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 14, 2014, 08:03am
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I've actually seen it more often in baseball. I wonder if that's just a baseball thing that some dual-hatted and transitioning umpires brought over to the softball side. I haven't been to a baseball clinic in many years, so I don't know if it's something that is endorsed as a courtesy on the grassed diamond.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 14, 2014, 08:22am
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Yes, I see it a lot in baseball too (or, saw it a lot, as I've transitioned almost exclusively to fastpitch the past couple of seasons).

But, no, it was never taught to me and I've never seen it in any baseball umpire manual. In fact, on some of the baseball forums that I frequent I've seen threads about this topic and, just like here, guys are against it.

A true story from my high school baseball days...I'm working the bases and there is a pitching change. Warm-ups get thrown I get back into "C" position snd get ready to go. Then I notice that the plate umpire is just standing there staring at me.

I can't figure out what's going on so I give my partner a subtle "what's going on?" signal. He points at the pitcher and says, "Go tell him".

Huh? Go tell who, what? I shrug my shoulders and he points at the pitcher again and says, "Go tell him the situation". Then I figure it out. He thinks that it's my responsibility to inform the pitcher how many outs there are and what runners are on base!

I kind of waved him off, like "I'm not going to do that, let's just play ball". But he points again and says to inform the pitcher. And it looks like he's not going to re-start the game until I do!

So, I took a few steps toward the mound, leaned in and said in my quietest voice, so nobody would know what I was saying except me and the pitcher, "Okay, pitch, are you ready? Alright, here we go now".

Apparently that was enough, because with that my partner put his mask back on, got back behind the plate and finally got the game going again.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 14, 2014, 09:00am
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I confess I do use the fist-bumping to indicate full count, but ONLY as a BU when my PU partner comes to me for the count. Obviously never as a PU.
It's easier to see from a distance, and just as discrete.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 14, 2014, 10:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
I've actually seen it more often in baseball. I wonder if that's just a baseball thing that some dual-hatted and transitioning umpires brought over to the softball side. I haven't been to a baseball clinic in many years, so I don't know if it's something that is endorsed as a courtesy on the grassed diamond.
It is only the practice of bad baseball umpires.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 14, 2014, 10:41am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
It is only the practice of bad baseball umpires.
That's what I suspected.

I still believe that at some point in the past, it was a common thing, and it's being kept alive by umpires who learned from those old-timers who did it.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 14, 2014, 10:53am
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Originally Posted by shipwreck View Post
Do any of you as PU or BU go out to the circle and let the new pitcher know where the runners are, outs and count when a pitching change is made? Do some of you do it only for low level ball? I have been told by evaluators to not do this, because that is considered coaching. I will give the count from behind home plate but that is it, the number of outs if requested. I had a game last week, ASA 12U, fairly good team. When I didn't inform a teams pitcher, the coach became livid. I told him then, and later after the inning ended that it wasn't my job to do this, it was his job. He informed me it was my responsibility to do this. He was in the circle while she was warming up. He told me I was the only umpire he has ever had who wouldn't do this in his 6 years of coaching. He also told me they would be playing in our State tournament this weekend, and he was going to find out for sure. My problem is, I see umpire doing this all the time. Even at the State tourney he will surely find umpires that agree with him, and then think he is right. Just wondering. Dave
I am an umpire, not a coach, so I don't do a coaches job when I am on the field. Informing his new pitcher of a game situation IS a coach's responsibility.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 14, 2014, 11:56am
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I was taught this by an older old school umpire way back when. I did it one year but after moving up to the 16/18A circuit I learned fast that i was taught wrong. I think this comes from the older umpires that only do rec. They work with a 1st year umpire and that umpire sees the example for older umpire and thinks it must be a mechanic.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 15, 2014, 07:06am
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I wouldn't give new pitchers any other information other than the count when the batter steps back into the batters box-- and that's to refresh everyone as a courtesy.

Surely it's the team and manager's jobs to remind themselves where the play is going, runners on, etc
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 15, 2014, 07:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Speaking of OCs. Last month in an girls' ASA FP tournament, I was on the Plate and Mark, Jr., was on the Bases. in a 10U game.

Red Team (who is the Visiting team and is losing) makes a pitching change during the inning. The new F1 comes in and takes her five warm-up pitches while her HC stands next to her during her warm-up pitches. After F1 finishes warming up her HC continues to stand next to the Pitching Circle. I tell the HC we are ready to play and our conversation goes as follows:

Defensive (Red) HC: Aren't you going to tell her what the situation is?

Me: What?

Red HC: Aren't you going to tell her where the runners are and how many outs there are?

Me: No. You need to leave the field now Coach.

Red HC: But that is your job.

Me: No, that is your job. (She is now just outside her dugout gate.) I am not her coach, you are.

Offensive (Green) HC (from the 3B Coaching Box): Yes it is your job.

Me (to Green HC): That is enough because you are not part of this conversation.

Red HC: See! She (Green HC) even knows you are not doing your job.

Mark, Jr.: Time! Game over. Time limit has been reached.

There is nothing like a long conversation on a very hot afternoon when the time limit is close at hand.
Trust me, the OH coaches are right, because they told you so!!!

I've seen some serious garbage come out of OH and I'm not talking about the umpires.

I may be wrong, but this practice may come from areas where umpires are expected to be there specifically to allow the players to participate in the game and to be part of that experience. I have always held that the umpires are not there for the players, coaches or spectators, but we are there for the game and only to officiate it regardless of the sport.

You will see this reflected on non-officiating boards any time you mention applying game management technics or rules to move the game along or which may hurt a little girl's feelings.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 16, 2014, 02:36pm
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Worked Little League districts with a "situation" guy last night. At least he didn't try to do it when I was on the plate in the second game.

Although he did do the "Out at two! Safe at one!" nonsense.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 16, 2014, 09:09pm
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Well I heard from a good umpire friend of mine who was working the State tourney where this clueless coaches team was playing. Sure enough, before the team even took the field for their first game, the coach was quizzing the umpires working his game about the scenario I asked about. They gave the same answer I gave him. I will umpire, you coach. Not our responsibility to tell the situation. Would have loved to see the look on his face. Dave
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 17, 2014, 04:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
One of the senior leaders of my high school official association does this. I've partnered with him a few times, and I cringe each time.
Anyone I know.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 17, 2014, 07:37pm
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The Regulative Principle of Umpiring

I had a guy who helped me quite a bit when I started many years ago.

He was an Elder in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. They abide by the regulative principle of worship...in other words, they only do things in their worship service that they believe the Bible commands and nothing else.

He said that I should take this principle in umpiring. Only do what you are supposed to do! Don't say take your base on ball four, don't point the batter down to first, don't give the "situation", don't flash the count at your partner from the bases, etc etc etc.

Have a reason for what you do as an umpire. Make sure that reason can be found in the Rules Book, Case Book, Umpire Manual or a clinic.

That helped me a lot.
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