Am I missing something?

[bethsdad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SC Ump
[B]

"visual distraction"

How about when the batter has a 3-0 count and starts waving the bat around like she might bunt?

[Steve M]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bethsdad
[B]

Originally posted by SC Ump

How about when the batter has a 3-0 count and starts waving the bat around like she might bunt?

You only ever see that garbage in the younger levels. As the players get older, more skilled, & more knowledgable, that stuff stops. And the players will pretty much police themselves in this.

Steve M

[Dakota]

We could come up with all kinds of acts that could be ruled interference if the wording of the rule & POE were taken literally. After all, it says interference is any "act ... that impedes, hinders, or confuses a defensive player...

Fake bunts, no matter how silly looking, are not interference.

[IRISHMAFIA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bethsdad
[B]

Originally posted by SC Ump

How about when the batter has a 3-0 count and starts waving the bat around like she might bunt?

What about it? Maybe she wants the opportunity to bunt should the proper pitch present itself, that isn't up to the umpire to read her mind.

Does it affect a fielder attempting to field a batted ball? Does it affect the defense throwing a ball in an attempt to put out a runner?

There is a sect of softball people who believe they have the right to force their standards of ethical play upon others. I'm not one of them. Just because something may seem "bush", doesn't make it illegal. As an umpire, my job is to apply the rules in the book, not make up my own sense of fair play.

Speaking ASA, this is not illegal.

[TruBlu]

Yes, but isn't there something to not letting players, coaches, fans make a travesty of the game? Following the "letter of the law" I believe only works 99.9% of the time. If allowed, some people (read: coaches) will bend the rules to the breaking point. Case in point from my experience: coach in the 3rd base box sees the grip on a pitcher's hand, and yells the pitch, expecially change-up, to the batter as the pitch is being delivered. Upon being told to stop, he replies "I'm talking to my batter, not the pitcher". The pitcher is visibly upset, cannot deliver the pitches, the coach doesn't stop, obviously his job is done.
This is a game I am watching from the sidelines (my game off). I called him on it the next game, he said he didn't have to stop, I tell him if he continues I'll toss him for unsportsmanlike conduct. He complains to my UIC, my UIC backs me and tells him he will not allow him to make a travesty of the game. The coach asks for it to be pointed out in the rule book, the UIC says he doesn't have to point out a single rule to cover this particular infraction, that it is his job to make sure the game is played fairly for all.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by TruBlu
Yes, but isn't there something to not letting players, coaches, fans make a travesty of the game? Following the "letter of the law" I believe only works 99.9% of the time. If allowed, some people (read: coaches) will bend the rules to the breaking point. Case in point from my experience: coach in the 3rd base box sees the grip on a pitcher's hand, and yells the pitch, expecially change-up, to the batter as the pitch is being delivered. Upon being told to stop, he replies "I'm talking to my batter, not the pitcher". The pitcher is visibly upset, cannot deliver the pitches, the coach doesn't stop, obviously his job is done.
This is a game I am watching from the sidelines (my game off). I called him on it the next game, he said he didn't have to stop, I tell him if he continues I'll toss him for unsportsmanlike conduct. He complains to my UIC, my UIC backs me and tells him he will not allow him to make a travesty of the game. The coach asks for it to be pointed out in the rule book, the UIC says he doesn't have to point out a single rule to cover this particular infraction, that it is his job to make sure the game is played fairly for all.

I have no problem with your UIC backing you up, but the coach is correct.

If a pitcher isn't capable of concealing her pitches, that is a problem for her coach, not the umpire. We have enough to do on the field without "making up" for a player's shortcomings.

Stealing signals or catching tip-offs and sharing them is not against the rules. ASA, or any of the sanctioning bodies, presents a rule book and other guidelines upon which to base our duties. I find no advantage to an umpire imposing their personal feelings of what is or is not fair upon teams.

As an umpire, I would never stop the coach from doing this. I might, however, have a problem with his/her timing. If it happened as the pitcher began her delivery, then I could support a USC ruling if s/he refused to stop.

Of course, if the coach had half a brain, he would have coded his signals. Then what are you going to do, insist you can read his/her mind? And, I have no problem with coaches attempting to bend the rules. When they go beyond that point is when we, as umpires, step in. That is why when there are violations it is referred to as "breaking" the rules. No mention of "bending."

JMHO,

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'd like to add, that having a nice talk with the 3B coach would probably occur to try and convince him/her to take the high road. If s/he doesn't stop at that point, I'll enforce the available rules when and if applicable.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by TruBlu
Yes, but isn't there something to not letting players, coaches, fans make a travesty of the game? Following the "letter of the law" I believe only works 99.9% of the time. If allowed, some people (read: coaches) will bend the rules to the breaking point.

Yes, there is, but your example is not making a travesty of the game, IMO.

The ONLY thing I would care about in the situation you presented is the timing and the decibels of the coach's instructions to his batter. If he was disrupting the pitcher's concentration during her delivery by yelling very loudly timed with her delivery, then I would put a stop to it, just as I would the dugout players banging on the fence or shouting at a similar time in the pitcher's motion, or the defensive players shouting "SWING" just as the ball reaches the plate.

But the issue would be timing and decibels, not content.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a coach giving his batter instruction about what pitch to watch for, whether it is based on his knowledge of general game strategy, his knowledge of the particular team/coach's tendancies, his knowledge of the particular pitcher's skill/tendancies, his stealing of the signs from the catcher, or his observing the grip on the ball. In fact, I don't even consider this "bending" the rules - it is just plain not illegal.

[TruBlu]

Let me expand on the situation: I told the coach that I didn't like what I was hearing from the coaches box, and I'd like it to stop. He told me to go back and umpire, he wasn't breaking any rules. He was SCREAMING the pitch (14u game) exactly in the middle of the delivery, doing the most damage possible. Everyone in the park knew why, including the parents of his players. It's not in the rules but it is bush league, cheap, or whatever, and I put a stop to it. And I think it is making a travesty of the game. It's not letting the players decide the outcome.

[Dakota]

He was SCREAMING the pitch (14u game) exactly in the middle of the delivery, doing the most damage possible.

I would have put a stop to that, too, but because of timing and decibels, not because he was being unfair or making a travesty of the game by giving his batter information about the pitch. It could be ruled as either unsportsmanlike conduct, or verbal interferance. Either way, it would stop or the coach would be gone.

And, again, the "it" that would stop would be the screaming during the pitch, not the instructing of the batter.

[Dakota]

This first thing I would do is what Mike suggested. After the first occurance, call time and have a quiet one-on-one conversation with the coach informing him that it will stop, and what rules he is violating.

On the second occurance, the coach is heading toward the parking lot. And, I may even enforce verbal interferance and call the runner closest to home out.

[gsf23]

coaches...if you are going to be stealing signs, be smart about it. Don't yell out the pitch. If it is a fastball say the the batter "quick bat" if it is a change say "sit back" so simple and it just sounds like you are instructiong your players.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by Dakota
... just as I would the dugout players banging on the fence or shouting at a similar time in the pitcher's motion, or the defensive players shouting "SWING" just as the ball reaches the plate...

I've got no specific rule violation on the coach (or the players in this example) unless I felt someone was doing something to try and make the pitcher commit an illegal pitch.

I have never had a problem with the defense yelling "SWING" or "SWING BATTER", as long as they are not yelling things to make the batter think she has to step out (like "HEADS UP" or "BALL IN" on two fields that are close together and have foul balls constantly coming across.)

When it's getting extreme, I will normalling say in passing to the offender(s) something like, "That's pretty bush league. I usually only see it done at {insert po-dunk local town name}." They usually stops when they realize it truly is bush league and yields very little results.

If a pitcher is broadcasting her pitches during her delivery, then she should be mad at her pitching coach, not the opposing coach who notices it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
This first thing I would do is what Mike suggested. After the first occurance, call time and have a quiet one-on-one conversation with the coach informing him that it will stop, and what rules he is violating.

On the second occurance, the coach is heading toward the parking lot. And, I may even enforce verbal interferance and call the runner closest to home out.

Tom,

Where do you get verbal interference? I don't believe there is any rule to support that. USC under 10.9.A is a possibility.

However, just how much help do you think the batter is going to get having the pitch screamed out with less than a second to react? The screaming alone would most likely be just as distracting to the batter as it is to the pitcher.

It may be bush or cheap, but that doesn't make it illegal. The one thing it is for sure is STUPID!

[CecilOne]

see newer thread: "ASA - running lane violation with a walk "


[Edited by CecilOne on Sep 2nd, 2003 at 11:04 AM]