Catch and Carry

[agr8zebra]

@UmpireErnie This was the 3A state championship game in Utah, I just saw it on the newsbut quickly said C&C. This was a 3-man crew and I can see the 3B U counter rotated at 2nd. I see he got a slow move to chase the fly ball. Granted the angle isn't great, but the physics of momentum tells she had to use something to return to the field of play so quickly. A collaspible I know wouldn't be ridgid enough. Just game awareness.

I had something similar in my 4A game on Thursday.

[MD Longhorn]

Generally, when you have a temporary or collapsable fence, the player is not in dead ball territory unless they are completely beyond that fence. The rule is not the same as the tarp rule at all.

In the OP, the player has not left live ball territory, even though he/she touches DBT.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Generally, when you have a temporary or collapsable fence, the player is not in dead ball territory unless they are completely beyond that fence.

Depends on the rule code. For ASA, a player can stand on a collapsed fence and make a legal catch:

Originally Posted by ASA 2009 case book

PLAY 1-12
F8 collides with a portable fence, knocking the fence to the ground and makes a catch while standing on the collapsed fence.
RULING: Legal catch, the ball is live. (1-CATCH/NO CATCH-A[2]). Also see rule supplement "Falling over the fence on a catch"

However, NCAA and Fed both treat the bottom of the fence as a "out of play line"

Originally Posted by NCAA 2014-2015 Rule book

1.20 Fair Territory
The wedge shaped area of the playing field within and including the foul lines from home plate to the bottom of the home-run fence and perpendicularly upward. Home plate, the bases, foul lines and poles are considered part of fair territory. Additionally, see AR 12.12.5: (snipped) In establishing "over the home run fence" on a collapsed fence, the plane is established from the base of the fence on the ground to the top of the fence when it is correctly positioned, not the top of the fence as it is falling or has fallen away from the field.

(sorry for not having a NFHS reference)
In both NCAA and NFHS, you can make a catch while crashing through the fence, but you cannot be on the ground beyond the fence line. I believe the first PGF championship game had this in question.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

In the OP, the player has not left live ball territory, even though he/she touches DBT.

In all codes, the play in the OP (which is shown on the facebook video), should be ruled as a catch and carry. The fed rule was provided Ernie in post #14; NCAA 9.3 Note 5.

[IRISHMAFIA]

To start, shame on every umpire who references the "feet in fair territory" without a disclaimer. WTF does the feet being in fair territory have to do with any of this? Y'all should know better.

AFA the NFHS & NCAA rules are concerned, not a big fan. Without a 5/6 umpire crew, it can be very difficult for an umpire to judge the position of an outfielder if the fence is pushed away from it's positioning. If using the face of the fence, at least of have a consistent and, IMO, much better reference with which to make a judgment.

Let me ask this question: If in NCAA/NFHS a temp fence is pushed back by the fielder and the ball hits the front of the fence, how is that not a GRD? The ball has traveled beyond the defined playable territory and struck an item in DBT.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by agr8zebra

Granted the angle isn't great, but the physics of momentum tells she had to use something to return to the field of play so quickly. A collaspible I know wouldn't be ridgid enough.

The collapsible is laying completely on the ground with fielder on top of it. If fielder were to lift herself up while completely on top of the fence which is laying on ground then ball still live. Only if she touches ground beyond fence is it a dead ball. Film shows like she did touch DBT but as Irish points out without a six man crew very hard to see that with the speed fielder bounced up.

We have several fields here where the outfield fence has opening on both ends in foul ground. The ground rule is that imaginary line extends from end of outfield fence to intersection with fence parallel to foul line. A fair batted ball can go out of play there. On occasion a batted or overthrown ball may come to rest very near this imaginary line.. If fielder picks up ball before umpire can judge that it went out of play then it never did, play on. This play in the 3A game looks similar. Blue never saw momentary touch of DBT so it never happened play on.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

The collapsible is laying completely on the ground with fielder on top of it. If fielder were to lift herself up while completely on top of the fence which is laying on ground then ball still live. Only if she touches ground beyond fence is it a dead ball. Film shows like she did touch DBT but as Irish points out without a six man crew very hard to see that with the speed fielder bounced up.

Correct for ASA; probably not correct for NCAA or NFHS (depending on where the fence is laying).

As noted by Big Slick earlier, ASA allows the collapsed fence to extend live ball area, applying the top of the fence (be it upright or collapsed) as the dead ball line. Both NCAA and NFHS apply the BASE of the fence as the dead ball line.

When the fence goes down (and we can assume it fell outside the playing field on these plays), the fence is now laying in dead ball territory, and pushing off that fence (or the ball laying on the fence) creates a dead ball situation. Rule 2.9.4 and case play 2.9.4; it is a legal catch while contacting or stepping on the collapsible fence which is NOT completely horizontal. So what is it when the fence IS completely horizontal? No catch, dead ball territory. Home run if fair.

My "probably" in the first sentence is if the fence somehow fell into the playing field (wind blown perhaps?); if it is inside the dead ball line established by the base of the fence when perpendicular, we are still in live ball territory.

As Big Slick also mentioned, a related play happened in the first year's PGF championship game; I can assure you this particular ruling under NFHS rules has been vetted from the very top.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Just to add to my post above.

When that play happened in the PGF championship game, I was watching the game with (among others) John Bennett; the John Bennett that writes the rules differences document, that is the umpire representative on the NCAA Rules Committee, and, I believe, the California state rules interpreter for the CIF (their high school organization). He and I looked at each other and said simultaneously "that's not right" when the uncaught ball was sitting on the horizontal fence and judged to be live.

In defense of the umpire in that game, he doesn't call high school; and the rule set was changed from NCAA rules (that he knows extremely well) to NFHS (not much at all). You can say (now) that NCAA and NFHS are the same, but different from ASA, but he didn't have that information available at the time; and John and I (and others) were off-site, watching on the ESPN TV broadcast.

If you are wondering (you shouldn't!!), Garland Cooper had no clue, but kept talking as if she knew the rule.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

He and I looked at each other and said simultaneously "that's not right" when the uncaught ball was sitting on the horizontal fence and judged to be live.

Maybe the fence only made it to 179 degrees.

[agr8zebra]

I emailed a guy on the Nfhs rules comittee, he said catch, then dead ball when the ball in the glove was grounded.

I realize it would be hard to see in a two man crew, maybe a little easies in 3, but still hard.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by agr8zebra

I emailed a guy on the Nfhs rules comittee, he said catch, then dead ball when the ball in the glove was grounded.

I disagree with that ruling. If that's the case, then anytime the ball is in the glove over the fence, and the glove touches something on that side of the fence, it's a dead ball.

For example, a fielder reaches into the stands to catch a foul pop. She makes the catch, and then her glove hits a number of fans' hands and arms as they reached for the ball as well. Or she reaches over the fence and catches the ball, and then her glove contacts something beyond the fence, like the bullpen netting, the back of a bleacher chair, etc, etc.

Are you going to rule a dead ball in those situations? I hope not. And I don't see how you would in this case either.