Catch and Carry

[agr8zebra]

No body out, Runner on 1st base. Batter hits to deep center field. At the collapsible fence the defense catches the near home run ball both feet clearly in fair territory but her momentum carries her through the fence, with her torso laying across the fence from chest to her knees, using her free hand and her glove hand(with the ball) she pushes herself up in dead-ball territory and quickly returns the ball to the infield.

Is this a catch and carry as in NFHS

Rule 8.4.3i?

Here is a link to a video on facebook it may work may not

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...r&notif_t=like

[RKBUmp]

The only thing I can find that is even remotely similar is from an NCAA interpretation with regards to an infield tarp stored in live ball territory. In that interpretation the ruling is the player can lean on the tarp or even lay across it and uses it to their advantage to catch the ball as long as their feet stay on the ground. But, if the player catches the ball and then puts a foot on the tarp it is to be considered a catch and carry.

Again, completely different rule set but it appears they determine the catch and carry to be based on the location of the players feet.

[agr8zebra]

In this case the player completely used her hands and the ball in dead ball territory to remove herself from the fence.

This was a Utah State Championship game with a 3-man crew.

[tcannizzo]

This weekend at the College Club World Series, in Columbus, GA we had exactly that - tarp rollers down the left field fence.

Ground rules were a player can touch the tarp with any part of the body except the foot. Don't know if this is universal, or just at this complex, because the explanation offered was that they didn't want metal cleats tearing up the tarp.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

This weekend at the College Club World Series, in Columbus, GA we had exactly that - tarp rollers down the left field fence.

Ground rules were a player can touch the tarp with any part of the body except the foot. Don't know if this is universal, or just at this complex, because the explanation offered was that they didn't want metal cleats tearing up the tarp.

That's correct and that's the purpose of the "tarp" rule. They don't want players stepping on the tarp with cleats.

[EsqUmp]

Catch.

Defender didn't "enter" dead ball territory.

Ball is live.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Catch.

Defender didn't "enter" dead ball territory.

Ball is live.

I would agree on this. There is a section in the rulebook, which is out in my car, that covers the collapsible fence rules. Since she never completely crossed the fence and was still on the fence, this would be a live ball. Think of it this way. Had she caught the ball over an upright fence, kept a foot on the ground, and leaned over the fence touching with one or both hands what would the call be. The ruling is the same, since she never left live ball territory, she is still in live ball territory.

IIRC their is a casebook play, while not the same, it does cover the collapsible fence rule. A player runs back, pushes on the fence so it is on the ground, stands on it, and makes the catch? The ruling is that it is a catch. In the OP, the player never left contact with the fence, she is still in live ball territory.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

The only thing I can find that is even remotely similar is from an NCAA interpretation with regards to an infield tarp stored in live ball territory. In that interpretation the ruling is the player can lean on the tarp or even lay across it and uses it to their advantage to catch the ball as long as their feet stay on the ground. But, if the player catches the ball and then puts a foot on the tarp it is to be considered a catch and carry.

Again, completely different rule set but it appears they determine the catch and carry to be based on the location of the players feet.

The bolded part has me scratching my head, as I don't believe that's a correct statement. Of course I could be wrong. Do you happen to have a rule reference, A/R or an interpretation you could cite in support? I couldn't find anything in the book or in Dee's interps and A/Rs.

[RKBUmp]

My kid is using my laptop at the moment so can't access the PDF. That comes from an NCAA rules interp PDF I downloaded from somewhere. I will get it for you as soon as I can get computer.

2012 Ask Dee

As to the tarp... unless a team locates it in dead ball territory (ie outside the fence or
within a fenced area) essentially a player can do anything EXCEPT put a foot on it...she can use it to her advantage to make a catch by bracing or leaning...just can't put a foot on it. It is not dead ball territory so she can sprawl on the tarp, make a catch and then get up and throw the ball. If the ball becomes lodged in the tarp, then you do have a dead ball (blocked ball). If you have a catch and then the player puts a foot on the tarp, you have a dead ball (catch and carry).

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

My kid is using my laptop at the moment so can't access the PDF. That comes from an NCAA rules interp PDF I downloaded from somewhere. I will get it for you as soon as I can get computer.

2012 Ask Dee

As to the tarp... unless a team locates it in dead ball territory (ie outside the fence or
within a fenced area) essentially a player can do anything EXCEPT put a foot on it...she can use it to her advantage to make a catch by bracing or leaning...just can't put a foot on it. It is not dead ball territory so she can sprawl on the tarp, make a catch and then get up and throw the ball. If the ball becomes lodged in the tarp, then you do have a dead ball (blocked ball). If you have a catch and then the player puts a foot on the tarp, you have a dead ball (catch and carry).

Thanks.
They should add that A/R to 2.25 when they print the 2016-2017 edition of the rule book.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by agr8zebra

No body out, Runner on 1st base. Batter hits to deep center field. At the collapsible fence the defense catches the near home run ball both feet clearly in fair territory but her momentum carries her through the fence, with her torso laying across the fence from chest to her knees, using her free hand and her glove hand(with the ball) she pushes herself up in dead-ball territory and quickly returns the ball to the infield.

Is this a catch and carry as in NFHS

Rule 8.4.3i?

Here is a link to a video on facebook it may work may not

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...r&notif_t=like

defense catches the near home run ball both feet clearly in fair territory

[BretMan]

Definitely a catch...but what about the carry?


NFHS 5-1-1(i): Ball becomes dead immediately when...

i. a fielder, after catching a fair or foul batted ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with one foot or by falling into a designated dead-ball area (i.e., bench, dugout, stand/bleacher, etc.).

NOTE: If a chalk line or imaginary line is used to determine dead-ball (out-of-play) territory, the line is considered in play.

a. If the fielder's feet are touching the line or are in live-ball territory, she is considered in the field of play and legally may field, catch or throw the ball without penalty.

b. If the player's entire foot (no part of the foot is touching in live-ball territory) is beyond the line and touches dead-ball territory at the time she catches, fields or throws the ball, she has entered dead-ball territory, the ball is dead, no play is allowed.

c. If a fielder has one foot in play and the other foot in the air, she legally may catch, field or throw the ball unless her entire foot contacts the ground in dead- ball territory, at which time the ball becomes dead, no play is allowed, and the penalty is applied.

d. If a fielder contacts dead-ball territory with any part of the body except the foot, she is considered out of play. No play is allowed, and the penalty is applied. When the fielder completely leaves and then re-establishes herself within liveball territory (both feet in live-ball territory), a catch would be allowed.


The highlighted sentence tells us that, following the catch, this fielder subsequently became "out of play" when her hand touched the ground in dead ball area.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Definitely a catch...but what about the carry?


NFHS 5-1-1(i): Ball becomes dead immediately when...

i. a fielder, after catching a fair or foul batted ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with one foot or by falling into a designated dead-ball area (i.e., bench, dugout, stand/bleacher, etc.).

NOTE: If a chalk line or imaginary line is used to determine dead-ball (out-of-play) territory, the line is considered in play.

a. If the fielder's feet are touching the line or are in live-ball territory, she is considered in the field of play and legally may field, catch or throw the ball without penalty.

b. If the player's entire foot (no part of the foot is touching in live-ball territory) is beyond the line and touches dead-ball territory at the time she catches, fields or throws the ball, she has entered dead-ball territory, the ball is dead, no play is allowed.

c. If a fielder has one foot in play and the other foot in the air, she legally may catch, field or throw the ball unless her entire foot contacts the ground in dead- ball territory, at which time the ball becomes dead, no play is allowed, and the penalty is applied.

d. If a fielder contacts dead-ball territory with any part of the body except the foot, she is considered out of play. No play is allowed, and the penalty is applied. When the fielder completely leaves and then re-establishes herself within liveball territory (both feet in live-ball territory), a catch would be allowed.


The highlighted sentence tells us that, following the catch, this fielder subsequently became "out of play" when her hand touched the ground in dead ball area.

Playing on the field with about a 5' fence, OF runs to the fence, leaps and makes a grab over the fence, but comes downs and catchers the fence with her arm catching herself from falling. In the process the non-glove hand and arm come down and grab the back of the fence, DBT. You ruling that a C&C?

Playing on a field with an 3' thick, 4' high padded brick wall. Long fly ball, OF jumps onto the top of the fence beyond the vertical plane from the base of the fence. I don't know of any baseball or softball rules which forbid the defense from standing on the fence to make a catch.

Yes, the second one is a rarity, the first really isn't as much a rarity as you think especially in the men's sp game, but still address the issue of the what and where contact occurs with DBT.